Rebuilding a 2.7 myself - What will it cost?

[red-beard]

I've been reading through the threads and picking up the pieces here and there, but can we do a run down of what it will cost in material, tools and machine shop work for _me_ to rebuild my 2.7

I am pretty sure that I have a loose cylinder (Lots of noise and blue/white smoke coming out of the engine compartment, but not the exhaust).

I've seen the gasket kit for around $170. I've seen kits which included the bearings (well, not the nose bearing) and the gaskets for around $380. I'm sure I would add valve springs. What about tools? I've read the great stand debate. P&Cs, refinishing and recoating vs new? Case inserts and "normal" case work? Obviously going to do the standard upgrades (Chain tensioner).

I am definitely a do it myself-er and I am not afraid of doing the rebuild myself. I'm not trying to build a monster motor either. I want to get my 911 running and reliable.

James

[snowman]

Well it could cost an easy $2000, doing it yourself. Replacing all the cylinder bolts, timeserts, case work, ie line bore, cylinders, pistons or just pistons and rings, rod bolts and nuts, flywheel bolts, that red or orange gasket stuff, valve job, regrind valves, seats or more likely new guides, plus some valves, plus grinding and seat work, resizing rods, new wrist pin retainers, crank may or may not need work. See Bruce Andersons book " Porsche 911 Performance Handbook" For a complete engine rebuilding checklist and related costs.

[jgparker]

Try closer to $4K. I'm doing a 2.7 right now, and if you have Alusil Cylinders like I do, you will probably have to replace them. I was trying to save as much money as possible, and here is my breakdown.

Machining $1,102
Parts $957
RS Pistons/Cyl $1,400
Cams (used) $350

Here is the detail on the parts I am buying:

Rebuild Kit $471
Flywheel Bolts $54
Intake Valves $120
Exaust Valves $234
Valve Springs $78

Here is the detail on the machining:

Line-bore Case $175
Install case savers $240
Oil Bypass mod $110
MagnaFlux Crank $30
MicroPolish Crank $30
Rebuild Rods $132
Grind valve seats $96
Replace v Guides $144
Rebuild Rockers $200


...and keep in mind I'm skipping a lot of steps that others consider manditory. Also, some of the best known machine shops will charge twice this amount.

[red-beard]

I believe I have the early Mahle P&C's. I'd prefer not to replace them unless necessary. The primary reason for rebuild is to install the case savers, but it's one of those - if you're gonna do that, you might as well do the whole thing...

Engine has about 80K on it. I would expect that the internals are probably pretty good, but covered in muck from sitting (Engine sat for 6 years, probably with the pulled cylinder stud).

Hmmmm.

What parts are must replace, ie like the rod nuts, that cannot under any circumstance be reused?

James

James

[jgparker]

Also, I've spent over $1K on the special 911 engine tools, but I've probably gone overboard. most can also be rented or borrowed. This is what I think is necessary:

P 10c Valve Spring Height Tool
P 20 Metric Dial Indicator
P 135 Flywheel Bolt Socket
P 140 Cylinder Head Securing Nut Set (6)
P 201 Engine Assembly Stand
P 201a Flywheel Lock
P 202 Camshaft Socket, 911-81
P 203 Camshaft Nut Crowsfoot, 46mm
P 204 Chain Sprocket Holder
P 207 Dial Gauge Bracket, Camshaft Timing
P 208 V-Belt Pulley Wrench, 911-1974
P 212 Camshaft Dowel Pin Extractor
P 213a Valve Adjust Feeler Gauge, .10mm
P 217 Heat Exchanger Nut 13mm Bent Wrench

I'm sure I've missed some. The chain and rod props are too expensive to justify. There are creative ways to do this.

[snowman]

When I said an easy $2000 I mean you would be lucky to get by at this price. The only way is to be lucky and not need much of anything, do a whole lot that most people would not do, and so forth. This is when a professional rebuilder, who can get parts for prices you can only dream about, looks pretty good.

[snowman]

YOu must replace rod bolts, rod nuts, and flywheel bolts. They can only be fully tightened ONE TIME. Although many do not you are risking loosing the whole engine if you do not replace them. These are designed as stretch bolts. That means you tighten them up so much that they permanently stretch a little. They can take one time for certain, additional times uses up the safty margin. Problem is the margin varies so much that the second time might be the time that does it, unfortunately there is no way to tell.

Be careful of junk, no name, and counterfit rod bolts. I have come across them. Good bolts will always be marked with the mfg, and will fit as well as the old ones did. It the new bolts are sloppy fitting, or not marked take them back and demand ones that are marked.

The best way to tighten rod nuts is not torque but to measure bolt stretch. A dial indicator is mounted to measure the length of the rod bolt while it is in the rod and being tightened. When the rod bolt stretched to 0.004" to 0.006" it is tight. The torque needed to do the same thing can vary by as much as 50%.

[soureyecandy]

Hi, i've been lookn' for a 74 too pick up, but i've been pricing engine rebuilds as well, i think going w/ a kit would be the best way to go, but i've only found about two places that sell them.. and from what i've heard about motor meister (spelling) is that they arn't all that great. I would do the rebuild myself that is not a problem. Where would you recomend geting quality engine rebuild kits, or parts from?
thanks
Ed

[esther]

... and don't forget all the little stuff that adds up too...
carb/engine cleaners - husband went through quite a few bottles to clean the case before re-assembling the bottom end - loctite - precision calipers - 2 cases of motor oil - string, clasps, metal sheets, spray paint, wires, bags, zipties, wire holders, airflow meter, mini torque wrench, "special" tool this that and the other (i think he just wanted to add to his tool collection )

As for rebuild kits, we bought ours here at pelican with the gasket kit and other stuff too.

[snowman]

Kits are the way to go. You get more parts for less that way. As to where to get them from, I do not personally know. but I suspect that Pelican is competative with the others.

[fmangiero]

I have about $3k invested in an engine rebuild of a '82 911SC Euro. I am waiting for my final machine shop bill for crankcase head studs, cam case cleaning, oil cooler clean and pressure test, micropolish crankshaft and glass bead some parts and sheet metal. I am anticipating $500. Then there are the gaskets and seals. I'm not sure if Pelican has the complete set. I have been dealing with Don at Engine Builders for most of the engine parts because they have the small stuff. (I broke almost all of my exhaust studs.) I figured another $600. for gaskets and seals. I have Mahle cylinders (one had to be re-plated) and I purchased 9.8:1 JE pistons. I also had my cams reground to 964 specs. All told the grand total will be slightly over $4k and I am doing this the on a budget over a long period of time rather than skimp a little here and there just to get it done.

[red-beard]

Where did you get your Cylinder recoated and what was the cost?

James

[Wayne 962]

Wow, this thread abounds with lots of mis-information.

First of all, I will be putting 'kits' together for the website within the next week or so. Pelican sells every stud, nut and washer used on the engines - it's all in our catalog with handy photos to boot:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/911M_catalog.htm

All of the information asked about in this thread is in Chapters 1-4 of the new book. Costs, what to replace, etc...

Count on $6K to rebuild the engine yourself. My machine work alone came out to be about $3300 by itself. This is of course, 'doing it right' and not skipping any steps.

Here is a thread where I posted the machine shop costs:

Motor Meister Opinions

-Wayne

[red-beard]

What about reconditioning cylinders?

James

[jgparker]

Wow, is it all really misinformation or just someone else’s opinion?

I have read your books cover to cover and have a great deal of respect for your work and your approach. I am sincerely grateful for the time and energy you have put into the book, this bulletin board and the 911 community.

However, I believe there is a diversity of opinions and approaches out there on many of the subjects covered and I personally want to hear it discussed freely. The reason I read this board is to hear the opinion of others. It almost sounds like you are letting people have it for dissenting. Sorry if I'm overreacting.

[Zeke]

Originally posted by jgparker
Wow, is it all really misinformation or just someone else’s opinion?

I have read your books cover to cover and have a great deal of respect for your work and your approach. I am sincerely grateful for the time and energy you have put into the book, this bulletin board and the 911 community.

However, I believe there is a diversity of opinions and approaches out there on many of the subjects covered and I personally want to hear it discussed freely. The reason I read this board is to hear the opinion of others. It almost sounds like you are letting people have it for dissenting. Sorry if I'm overreacting.

I have had an ongoing dialogue with Wayne about the cost of a rebuild for months. Wayne is a do-it-right-or-don't-do-it-at-all kind of guy. He's very serious about this stuff. There are other dimentions to this approach. I can't seem to completely agree that nothing short of the full monty is but a halfassed job. I could, quite frankly, put a set of used P & C's in an engine as well as used cams. There are some things that you can't take any short cuts on. If I had to accept the premise that any engine is going to cost over six large, I would never be able to own a 911 again. And that is out of the question.

[Evans, Marv]

James:
JP is pretty much right on. I would go with his costs for machine work, etc. I spent $900 for JE pistons and about $1700 for new nikasyl cylinders and about $750 on coatings for my 2.7. The whole thing cost a pretty penny. But, I did what I could to make the engine last. What I did was disassemble everything, take everything to Motorworks ( a couple of us emailed you about them) on Island in S.D. and have them do the machine work and assemble the engine. They assembled it for $600 plus some odds & ends. Since I haven't put together an engine for a long time, I decided to pay to have it done for the peace of mind. I'm looking forward to putting it in my '69 someday - that is when I get time. Good luck.

[red-beard]

They only charged $600 to put it together? Wow! That sounds like a Deal. Is this dealing with Bert or anyone specific?

[mb911]

I would agree that it should cost as little as $2000 and as much as $6000. It seems as though people tend to be parts changers rather than inspecting and then making a decision. I rebuilt my 2.7 out a 74 911 with 50,000 mile on it. I measured piston to cylinder clearances and crank to crank case clearances basically everything but nothing was out of spec. That being said I had no machining done so it cost me about $1200 bucks including new rings, 8 bearings mains, rod bolts, rod nuts, rod bearings,gasket set , valve job with new guides, and new timing chains. The tools were all made by me so there was no cost on that. My point of all this is that you can do it right for a cheap price if you inspect and evualate what you have properly.

Ben

[Evans, Marv]

That was about a year ago. You can look in the phone book & call them to find out. I dealt mostly with Albert, but I think he may have retired. They are all really trustworthy people. If I remember right, I spent about $1200 total on machine work I that included an align hone to put oversized bearings in the case. I bought the parts here and there, some from Pelican. When you are looking at a couple of grant for machine work & assembly plus whatever parts you buy (I put ARP rod bolts, etc. in mine), you're looking at probably 3 to 4 grand plus any things like pistons & cylinders, valves, etc. Not cheeeep!