'78 case built to '80 Euro, FD & WUR mess

[jellonailer]

Like title says I'm trying to sort a mess.

I have a '77 with a '78 case. Previous owner had an '80 Euro build, or so he thought. 4 of 6 blown rings so I teardown and I find the only thing '80 Euro was the P&C's, which are 95 Mahle Euro 9.8CR, the Fuel Dist is for a standard 2.7S, as is a few of the other parts on top. The Air Flow though is the -149 for a Euro 3.0, got part of it right.

To further jack this up, I "upgraded" to a 964 Cam while in there, that's on me.

So, what's the most practical way out of this? Do I need to source ALL the Euro 3.0 Fuel side kit or can I get by with say the -077 FD and other parts from the US model? My guess is almost everything on the US 3.0SC was for "emissions" and not performance. It will be quite a few parts I need to find going full boat Euro 3.0.

Thanks in advance for any comments/suggestions.

Ken

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by jellonailer

Like title says I'm trying to sort a mess.

I have a '77 with a '78 case. Previous owner had an '80 Euro build, or so he thought. 4 of 6 blown rings so I teardown and I find the only thing '80 Euro was the P&C's, which are 95 Mahle Euro 9.8CR, the Fuel Dist is for a standard 2.7S, as is a few of the other parts on top. The Air Flow though is the -149 for a Euro 3.0, got part of it right.

To further jack this up, I "upgraded" to a 964 Cam while in there, that's on me.

So, what's the most practical way out of this? Do I need to source ALL the Euro 3.0 Fuel side kit or can I get by with say the -077 FD and other parts from the US model? My guess is almost everything on the US 3.0SC was for "emissions" and not performance. It will be quite a few parts I need to find going full boat Euro 3.0.

Thanks in advance for any comments/suggestions.

Ken

Ken,

So you have a ‘77 chassis with a 3.0 liter SC motor with different CIS components from various model/year installed. My first question is what intake runners do you have? Are they -2R or -4R? Second question why FD-077? That FD is for CIS with OXS or lambda. Last question, what WUR and FD do you have now on the motor. Thanks.

Tony

[jellonailer]

Tony, Thanks for the reply. You are correct 3.0 with Euro P&C and VARIOUS other bits and pieces on top mostly from a 2.7S, and to be frank I guess the chassis is irrelevant...

Currently the 0 438 100 006 FD was and is on it, that's what started this. I happen to have a -077 in my stuff which was hopeful to use. I will see if I can get the Intake number, I'm pretty sure large 39mm.

I'll look at the WUR P/N and some of the others and repost.
Thank you.

[jellonailer]

Runners are -4R

[Flat6pac]

The euro for 80, I recall used 8.5 Mahle pistons, not the 9.8 of 82/83. So, the setup for euro was cam timing, everything inside being the same. Instead of a cat converter there was a silencer or glass pack.
The WUR or fuel distributor are not going to give you increased performance, just better or different overall running quality.
964 cams and 8.5 CR, not getting a kick that is in what you have could be so much more.
Bruce

[jellonailer]

I was assuming the build I had was correct, an '81'ish Euro 3.0, then the tear down came. I confirmed it had the Mahle 95mm 9.8 CR pistons so using Wayne Dempseys chart in his rebuild book he lists an upgraded 3.0 CIS using 9.8 or 9.3 CR pistons, with a 964 Cam, the SSI and sport exhaust which I already had. I assume Wayne assumes the CIS is appropriate for the 3.0, and not a 2.7 CIS, but he doesn't say.

In retrospec if I knew the CIS I have was wrong at teardown I would have went early 2.7 Cam and carbs and been done with it. Still might do that if I need to source a whole new 3.0 Euro CIS from scratch. Shame on me for looking at the whole system before assembly.

[PeteKz]

Yes, the 1980 models used the lower compression pistons. The 9.8 CR pistons were used starting in 1981, IIRC.

[Wayne 962]

Hi all. I was asked to jump in. Not a simple question.

Firstly, if you're going to be tearing into the motor and emissions are not a concern, then the two best upgrades hands down are high compression pistons and 'S' cams. Of course, then you need a set of Webers (or PMOs). This is what I have on my 1972 911 RS "clone" with a high compression 3.0L Al block (with, of course, 'S' cams and Webers). Can't be beat. Sounds great, and throttle response is fantastic too. This is how these cars should be.

That is of not much use to the jellonailer though:

So, what's the most practical way out of this?

I've read through this thread, and if there is one thing that is clear, it's that there is no clarity. Again, not very useful. However, if this was my car, or a car that I had just acquired (or even better yet, a friend had acquired without asking my opinion first, so I don't have any responsibility ), then I would say the only approach would be to put a O2 data logger on the thing and actually see what the fuel mixtures are at various loads and speeds. Map it out. It doesn't matter what fruit basket of parts are on the car - you need to see what the mixtures actually are. I'm guessing it's too lean with the 2.7 fuel distributor. Based upon what you find, you might be able to change / alter the fuel pressures to richen it up.

I have an LM1 (and LM2) which I use. Not the greatest tool in my opinion, but it gets the job done (most of the time).

Hope this helps,

Wayne

[jellonailer]

Thanks for the quick honest answer. Much appreciated. The one answer - it doesn't matter what's on it as long as you get the fuel mixtures right is what we thought the mix and match parts answer would be. The proper parts simply mean you can actually get there. (Our hunch has been because of the 2.7 FD with the 3.o Euro it has always been too lean, maybe detonation had something to do with 4 out of 6 ring sets being gone).

I don't think a lot of people check matching FD/WUR/Air Flow parts before they buy - though for sure I will if there is a next time!

Knowing this, my last point: the engine is out, most of the CIS is off, and it wasn't a money thing to stay CIS - now is the time to take the fork in the road. Hell, I even have the "S" cams that came out of it so going PMO's would be the "best" option right now. The best time to do it was 2 weeks ago, but the 2nd best time will never be better than now.

[Wayne 962]

It's definitely the better way to go. S cams, high compression pistons and ITB (independent throttle body) fuel

-Wayne

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by jellonailer

Tony, Thanks for the reply. You are correct 3.0 with Euro P&C and VARIOUS other bits and pieces on top mostly from a 2.7S, and to be frank I guess the chassis is irrelevant...

Currently the 0 438 100 006 FD was and is on it, that's what started this. I happen to have a -077 in my stuff which was hopeful to use. I will see if I can get the Intake number, I'm pretty sure large 39mm.

I'll look at the WUR P/N and some of the others and repost.
Thank you.

Ken,

Were you able to look at the WUR? Hope you are not using a WUR-033 for this project. Keep us posted. Thanks.

Tony

[jellonailer]

Tony - have not even gotten to that part yet, I'm still on the big ticket items. I am very very close to pulling all the CIS off and going ITB or PMO. I was close to doing that a couple of months ago and now I'm regretting it.

Thanks for the interest.

[jellonailer]

Right this moment 0 148 140 is on the engine

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by jellonailer

Right this moment 0 148 140 is on the engine

Ken,

You read it wrong. Bosch ID # is 0 438 140 XYZ. The last 3 digits identify a particular BOSCH WUR. Try another peek.

Tony

[jellonailer]

Tony - you right, -045

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by jellonailer

Tony - you right, -045

Ken,

If you decide to continue using CIS, all you need now is find a FD-031 instead of your FD-077 which is a non-EURO component. BTW, what is the Bosch ID # of the ignition distributor on your engine? Thanks.

Tony

[jellonailer]

Hmm OK, everything we have seen says it should be an -097 for the 3.0 Euro 150Kw FD, which are rare as you can guess. The -031 would be a lot easier to source.

Have not even got to the distributor, you have some tribal knowledge on that? I will check it.

I am very close to changing back to a early "S" cam and carbs, very close. waiting on a few CIS part availability.

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

Ken,

If you decide to continue using CIS, all you need now is find a FD-031 instead of your FD-077 which is a non-EURO component. BTW, what is the Bosch ID # of the ignition distributor on your engine? Thanks.

Tony

Ken,

Wrong answer again! I was inquiring about the ignition distributor. Not fuel distributor.

Tony

[jellonailer]

Understood. I will get it, the Ignition Distributor P/N. Engine isn't at the house.
I was commenting on the Fuel Distributor:
- Was on the engine installed by Previous Owner -006
- I happen to have as a spare -077
- My Bosch P/N book says the Fuel Distributor for a 3.0 Euro is an -097
- Advised by Fuel Injection Corp guys -097

If a -031 Fuel distributor works that certainly helps a bunch, as I have seen them available. Then I can work back from there.

[jellonailer]

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