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-   -   1979 SC Chewed a Valve - Total Rebuild (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/1179839-1979-sc-chewed-valve-total-rebuild.html)

OsoMoore 07-14-2025 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 12497272)
The darkened area inside the valve scallop and corresponding area on the stem itself would seem to indicate a preexisting failure point/crack.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1752419846.jpg

Wow, that is very interesting. Having that fall off would definitely kickstart the catastrophe!

I'm looking at sending headers/cam towers/cams/rockers to Craig Garret at G2 for him to clean up the saveable stuff and replace the unlovable parts. Basically get a full clean top end.

My only uncertainty is if I wanted to bore out larger (currently 95mm) pistons. I wouldn't want to have to go back if we decide to go to 97 for example. My understanding is the heads would then be bored to match.

Henry Schmidt 07-14-2025 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OsoMoore (Post 12497855)
Wow, that is very interesting. Having that fall off would definitely kickstart the catastrophe!

I'm looking at sending headers/cam towers/cams/rockers to Craig Garret at G2 for him to clean up the saveable stuff and replace the unlovable parts. Basically get a full clean top end.

My only uncertainty is if I wanted to bore out larger (currently 95mm) pistons. I wouldn't want to have to go back if we decide to go to 97 for example. My understanding is the heads would then be bored to match.

I would urge you to take your time and find one "expert" to advise your build. I am already hearing you say things that you heard that are not true. The internet has way too many "experts" that regurgitate nonsense just to sound important.
First find out what you have. Figure out a budget and proceed with a well thought out plan.
That plan must include a sound bottom end.

OsoMoore 07-14-2025 02:48 PM

In that case, I should find something profitable to do until next week when the expert is back from his races. I held off on cleaning things aggressively because I had read that many places are going to beadblast or use other special cleaning setups, and thus there wasn't much point in me laboring away with a brush and simplegreen on a cam cover.

So... some things I can do in the interim:
- Clean the engine bay carefully
- Clean the CIS components
- Fix some low voltage frayed wires in the ignition system
- Repack CV joints (yay!)

911 Rod 07-15-2025 05:27 AM

and maybe change the details in your sig :D

OsoMoore 07-15-2025 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 911 Rod (Post 12498257)
and maybe change the details in your sig :D

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/suppo...leys/smi10.gifhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/suppo...leys/smi10.gifhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/suppo...leys/smi10.gif

Bought a pressure washer this morning, planning to clean up aluminum external case areas, engine bay, and transmission. Water and simple green.
Won't touch anything steel until I have a plan to avoid it rusting over later. I don't mind the anodized look, I just want to get all the grim off.

911 Rod 07-15-2025 06:50 AM

Do you have a parts washer and a couple of cases of brake clean?

OsoMoore 07-15-2025 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 911 Rod (Post 12498309)
Do you have a parts washer and a couple of cases of brake clean?

No parts washer, haven't bought any other new cleaning materials yet. Just have brushes and a gallon of simplegreen from beforehand.

I'll be taking most of the disassembled engine to a local Porsche shop next week to get it measured and analyzed, prior to buying new parts or sending things to be refinished/etc.

The shop will likely also have parts cleaners and the like, they do a lot of Porsche engine rebuilds. So I am trying to avoid doing a lot of messy work that could be done more easily by equipment a shop has.

917_Langheck 07-15-2025 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OsoMoore (Post 12498315)
The shop will likely also have parts cleaners and the like, they do a lot of Porsche engine rebuilds. So I am trying to avoid doing a lot of messy work that could be done more easily by equipment a shop has.

They charge you for both the time, and materials (every can, at market+) to clean parts.

OsoMoore 07-16-2025 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 917_Langheck (Post 12498700)
They charge you for both the time, and materials (every can, at market+) to clean parts.

After some looking, I'm not seeing anyone local advertising parts cleaning online. Maybe that's not an official service any more?
I can use the pressure washer and Simplegreen for a first pass, then my bucket and some solvent and brush.

In general, what's the rule for how to clean and keep parts safe? My tentative plan based on reading so far:
1) Aluminum parts can be cleaned with detergent and solvents. If not sealed/treated afterwards they may anodize, but that is purely cosmetic.
2) Steel parts can be cleaned as well, although anything that strips the oil will leave them vulnerable to rust. Lightly coat in oil afterwards. Or maybe something else?
3) Be very gentle with surfaces that mate to other surfaces to avoid oil leaks.
4) Be cautious about any brush bristles or grime or other foreign objects getting stuck inside.

Some parts are going to be rebuilt, and the costs generally already include the shop cleaning. This includes:
1) Refinishing Heads
2) Refinishing and flushing Cam Towers
3) Flushing and test the oil cooler

Henry Schmidt 07-16-2025 07:20 AM

You might search for a hot tank service. Most hot tanks employ the use of caustic soda (Sodium Hydroxide) which can turn aluminum products black so I would search of a service that offers sodium metasilicate in their hot tank service.
TECHNICHEM offers the best we've found.

Have you split you case yet?
Did the failure damage the crank as well as the rod?
The yellow glob looks like epoxy...did you find anything that was repaired with epoxy?

OsoMoore 07-16-2025 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 12498798)
You might search for a hot tank service. Most hot tanks employ the used of caustic soda (Sodium Hydroxide) which can turn aluminum products black so I would search of a service that offers sodium metasilicate in their hot tank service.
TECHNICHEM offers the best we've found.

Have you split you case yet?
Did the failure damage to crank as well as the rod?
The yellow glob looks like epoxy...did you find anything that was repaired with epoxy?

Oh, didn't think of checking "hot tank". Found someone near by I can follow up with: https://dons-auto.com/machine-shop/ I will contact them and ask about methods and rates.

I split the crankcase and pulled the rod for the the destroyed piston. The rod has a gouge on one end, and is probably going to need replacing. It might be bent, hard to eyeball that for me. There were more piston bits in the crankcase. Other than that, it appeared quite clean.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1752680087.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1752680087.jpg

The crank looked fine to my untrained eye. There is some damage to the worm gear and the large gear that connects to the intermediate shaft.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1752680087.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1752680087.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1752680087.jpg

I didn't see any foreign objects in the oil pump, but I'm a little concerned it might have sucked something in.

The case and mainshaft seal (not sure about the name) had the epoxy-like stuff on a spot that I suspect was leaking after the initial rebuild, I think the chunk came from there. I will examine them more closely tonight or early tomorrow when I'm home.

I'll be taking everything to the area Porsche shop on Monday or Tuesday next week, and have been holding off on ordering anything until I can get expert in-person analysis. So currently I'm collecting info, doing some cleaning, and making lists of questions.

The results from that meeting should help inform how much needs to be replaced. Maybe full piston/cylinder set, maybe on option to bore out all existing cylinders, maybe replacing just one? We'll see!

PeteKz 07-16-2025 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 12497272)
The darkened area inside the valve scallop and corresponding area on the stem itself would seem to indicate a preexisting failure point/crack.

Good observation. That raises the hypothesis that the valve head came off, causing the rest of the damage. Now I wonder if the old valves were reused in the last rebuild (they frequently are), and that was the cause.

OsoMoore 07-16-2025 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteKz (Post 12499001)
Good observation. That raises the hypothesis that the valve head came off, causing the rest of the damage. Now I wonder if the old valves were reused in the last rebuild (they frequently are), and that was the cause.

Valves were new at the time of the rebuild (25 years ago).

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1752699734.jpg

OsoMoore 07-17-2025 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 12498798)
...
The yellow glob looks like epoxy...did you find anything that was repaired with epoxy?

Found the main area that has epoxy. Based on the notes from the old rebuild, I think there was a moderate oil leak here, and this was a mostly successful attempt to seal it.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1752762175.jpg

OsoMoore 07-17-2025 06:25 AM

Waiting to take major actions until I talk to the Porsche shop early next week. This morning I set up a new pressure washer and washed the chain covers and housings with high pressure and simple green. Then I put them in a bucket with more simple green to soak. I'll come back and scrub them tomorrow when I have time.

Is it recommended that I clean each nut and bolt and reuse it? Or just buy new ones? I can get them in bulk from McMaster-Carr, or individually here on our host. I presume the nylock nuts must be replaced, but it feels like there are 100 other fasteners too.

Henry Schmidt 07-17-2025 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OsoMoore (Post 12499356)
Found the main area that has epoxy. Based on the notes from the old rebuild, I think there was a moderate oil leak here, and this was a mostly successful attempt to seal it.

Identifying the source of the epoxy is a good thing. The method of repair is rudimentary and as evidenced by the leaks on this "rebuild" ultimately failed.

We have a method of repairing this leak that has proven itself over the years. It's still a band-aid but for some, it beats disassembling the entire engine.

Number 8 Main Bearing seal kit
sup-lrk-001

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1752764767.JPG

The repair sleeve is designed to press fit on the outside of the # 8 main bearing so the interference fit should be about .0015- .0020 inches.

Clean case and bearing as well as possible. Use a small wire brush (like a tooth bush) and rinse with lacquer thinner or aerosol brake cleaner. Use compressed air to ensure a dry and dust free surface.

Heat the repair (small) sleeve to 180 degrees F (+ or – 10 degrees). A propane torch or hot water will suffice.
Slide the repair/sealing sleeve (smaller of the two) onto the snout of the # 8 bearing (chamfer side towards the case) until it is flush with the front edge of the bearing leaving room for the install the epoxy mixture. If it doesn’t quite go as far as flush with the end it’s ok. The pressing mechanism should still work.

Mix between 4 and 5 ml of epoxy in the red container (1) and set it aside.
Take the bolt and washer supplied in the kit and install them in the pulley. Lube the bolt end with thread lubricant supplied in the kit (2).

Take the installation sleeve and install it on the repair sleeve using the recessed end.

Take the syringe supplied in the kit and fill it with you epoxy mixture. Apply it liberally around the bearing as close to the case as possible. If you use too much you can wipe the excess off after the sleeve installation is complete.

Using the pulley, bolt and washer assembly, tighten the bolt until the pulley makes contact with the installation sleeve.
At this point, use a 19mm socket and wrench to press the sleeve all the way against the case.

Let dry for 12hrs.

Remove the crank pulley and installation sleeve and reinstall the pulley using your original bolt.

Remember to reinstall the locator pin before the final re-torque.

E Sully 07-17-2025 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OsoMoore (Post 12499360)
Waiting to take major actions until I talk to the Porsche shop early next week. This morning I set up a new pressure washer and washed the chain covers and housings with high pressure and simple green. Then I put them in a bucket with more simple green to soak. I'll come back and scrub them tomorrow when I have time.

Is it recommended that I clean each nut and bolt and reuse it? Or just buy new ones? I can get them in bulk from McMaster-Carr, or individually here on our host. I presume the nylock nuts must be replaced, but it feels like there are 100 other fasteners too.

I would not soak aluminum or magnesium parts in Simple Green. Simple Green recommends no more than 10 minutes before rinsing off.
https://simplegreen.com/industrial/faqs/aluminum/

OsoMoore 07-17-2025 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E Sully (Post 12499575)
I would not soak aluminum or magnesium parts in Simple Green. Simple Green recommends no more than 10 minutes before rinsing off.
https://simplegreen.com/industrial/faqs/aluminum/

Thanks for the note! I went out and rinsed them all down with normal water, and I'll do a more thorough rinse later after work.

Using a plastic brush seems mostly to push around the grime, not remove it. But the power washing blasted it off very well.

OsoMoore 07-18-2025 10:53 AM

Powerwashed it clean again, looks fine.

I'm putting together a list of general questions for the shop guy next week, in addition to looking at my parts in particular and identifying what needs replacement, what needs rework in a shop, and what I can re-use as is.

General questions:
1) Should I reuse bolts and nuts? They are generally grimy but in good shape. Obviously nylock need to be replaced.
2) Should I use carb/brake cleaner for cleaning steel and aluminum external or internal surfaces? Something else?
3) What should I use after cleaning steel or aluminum surfaces to prevent corrosion?
4) What "while you're in there" jobs should I do? Transmission, clutch, and CIS have all been done recently.

PeteKz 07-18-2025 12:44 PM

Re "while you're in there": Suspension work. Good time to replace the rear trailing arm bushings and spring plate bushings, if those are still original. If you're thinking about replacing fuel lines, especially those through the tunnel, it's heck of a lot easier without the drivetrain installed.

OsoMoore 07-18-2025 01:04 PM

I did do fuel lines a few years ago (Spring surprise). I'll take a look at those bushings. Some suspension work was done ~20 years ago, but I'm not sure exactly what.

OsoMoore 07-22-2025 08:49 AM

Just got back from the rebuild shop here in Milwaukee. He's done engines for many years, including rebuilds for some friends of mine.

We talked for a little over an hour and went through the parts. My plan is to use his shop as a base for getting major parts hot-tanked, source new parts, and farm out the work like heads etc that I can't do at home via his contacts.
I'll handle all the manual stuff that's doable in a garage, cleaning, assembly, etc.

Ballpark is looking in ~$10K for cylinders, pistons, head work (one totally replace), rod balancing (one totally replaced), new oil pump, cam grinding, rocker arm grinding (one totally replaced), one new tensioner, new chains, new worm gear, and some other stuff.

A rebuild on his time (with a some cosmetic extras) would run $25K, so I'm looking to save a fair penny with my work. But I'll have his support and backup to get it done a lot cheaper. I won't get things zinc-plated or professionally repainted, but I'll come out the end with a solid engine that should run another 25 years.

Cairo94507 07-25-2025 04:58 AM

Man, that failure sucks. Have you considered just swapping in a running replacement engine? Maybe a 3.2? Might be a lot cheaper in the long run and get you back in your car. Good luck.

OsoMoore 07-25-2025 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cairo94507 (Post 12503628)
Man, that failure sucks. Have you considered just swapping in a running replacement engine? Maybe a 3.2? Might be a lot cheaper in the long run and get you back in your car. Good luck.

I did, but a rebuilt engine looks likely to cost $30K, considering mine wouldn't be considered a useable core due to the destroyed cylinder, piston, and head. And damaged chain tensioner etc.

Final worst-case parts plus shop work now tallies to just under $18K.

OsoMoore 07-30-2025 08:12 AM

Heads are out to a shop, as are cams and oil cooler. Will take a bit for new/repaired parts to start rolling back in. For now, just waiting and cleaning the bits that aren't traveling.

OsoMoore 08-11-2025 01:15 PM

Parts are starting to come back from machine shops - heads should be in this week.

I need a replacement connecting rod for the one that impacted and was gouged and twisted. The number on my bent one reads 930.103.105.0R, although I think 911.103.105 works as well. A full new set is $$$$ so I'm hoping to find a used one that can be matched with the other 5.

Can anyone confirm if these match? Sierra Madre Collection: "Porsche Connecting Rod - 911 2.4/2.7 72-77 911-103-105-0R"

Henry Schmidt 08-11-2025 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OsoMoore (Post 12513266)
Parts are starting to come back from machine shops - heads should be in this week.

I need a replacement connecting rod for the one that impacted and was gouged and twisted. The number on my bent one reads 930.103.105.0R, although I think 911.103.105 works as well. A full new set is $$$$ so I'm hoping to find a used one that can be matched with the other 5.

Can anyone confirm if these match? Sierra Madre Collection: "Porsche Connecting Rod - 911 2.4/2.7 72-77 911-103-105-0R"

First, 2.7 and 3.0 SC rods are not the same. Next, you can't believe how many weights groups there are in Porsche connecting rods. They can very 12 grams in the same part number and even rods that have the same overall weight can very over 10 grams from end to end.
Your best best is to buy a new set of rods, I like Carrillo.
The next best bet is to source a matched set of used rods. They are available for pennies on the dollar compared to new.
Then have that replacement set rebuilt.
Trying to source one matching rods could take 100 hrs of your life and you may never succeed. Spend 10 minutes on PP classified or EBay and you win.

Flat6pac 08-11-2025 03:03 PM

Part number and complete weight with nuts and bolts, weigh it against one of the good ones, or maybe the best of three to assure your grams are equal.
Bruce

OsoMoore 08-11-2025 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 12513333)
First, 2.7 and 3.0 SC rods are not the same. Next, you can't believe how many weights groups there are in Porsche connecting rods. They can very 12 grams in the same part number and even rods that have the same overall weight can very over 10 grams from end to end.
Your best best is to buy a new set of rods, I like Carrillo.
The next best bet is to source a matched set of used rods. They are available for pennies on the dollar compared to new.
Then have that replacement set rebuilt.
Trying to source one matching rods could take 100 hrs of your life and you may never succeed. Spend 10 minutes on PP classified or EBay and you win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flat6pac (Post 12513335)
Part number and complete weight with nuts and bolts, weigh it against one of the good ones, or maybe the best of three to assure your grams are equal.
Bruce

Thanks guys, good to know that's a fool's errand.
Got a lead on a Pelican (2K+ post history) with a full set for $120 + S/H. Also swatting off scammers left and right.

snbush67 08-12-2025 08:57 PM

I had a bad experience with original rods. Your highest probability for success is to skip the used rods and buy carillo, or pauter, etc.

mikedsilva 08-13-2025 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snbush67 (Post 12514196)
I had a bad experience with original rods. Your highest probability for success is to skip the used rods and buy carillo, or pauter, etc.

Really?
Most of the feedback I've had, is that the 3.0SC rod is quite a strong rod.

snbush67 08-13-2025 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikedsilva (Post 12514430)
Really?
Most of the feedback I've had, is that the 3.0SC rod is quite a strong rod.

Not the strength of the rod but reusing could be problematic, remember you commented on my spun rod bearing. Probably wasn’t the rod but the bore dimensions after machining. And by the time you pay for shipping, machining, new bolts etc. you’re probably not that far off from buying new higher performance parts with exact specs.

OsoMoore 08-24-2025 02:12 PM

All parts are accounted for and should be arriving this week. Some are new (RIP my oil pump), some are reworked by the machine shop (heads, rods, etc), and some have stayed here in my garage (engine tin, heat exchangers, etc.)

I've read that I should clean all of these very carefully, even the brand new or hot-tanked stuff. I ordered a bunch of lint-free cloths, but I need to figure out what is the best solvent to use for cleaning these various parts.

Also, I need to figure out how I should be protecting the new steel parts from rust while I work through assembly. My garage is not temp or climate controlled, and I don't want rust while I'm working through it.

I'm excited to finally start putting things back together!

hanieid123 08-25-2025 06:54 PM

good luck!

targa72e 08-25-2025 08:58 PM

I need to figure out what is the best solvent to use for cleaning these various parts

I recently was cleaning some body panels for paint where the recommendation was clean with solvent based cleaner and then water based. After cleaning the panels until the chem wipes came back clean with solvent cleaner I was surprised when the first wipe with water based came back black. Different contaminants have different polarities to solvents. Example gasoline does a bad job of cleaning mud but water works very well. So switch it up with something like brake cleaner and something like Dawn dish soap in water.

john

OsoMoore 08-26-2025 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by targa72e (Post 12522237)
I need to figure out what is the best solvent to use for cleaning these various parts

I recently was cleaning some body panels for paint where the recommendation was clean with solvent based cleaner and then water based. After cleaning the panels until the chem wipes came back clean with solvent cleaner I was surprised when the first wipe with water based came back black. Different contaminants have different polarities to solvents. Example gasoline does a bad job of cleaning mud but water works very well. So switch it up with something like brake cleaner and something like Dawn dish soap in water.

john

Good idea, I'll have that on hand.

I have been studying the first assembly step (titled Section 2) in Wayne's rebuild book, and the complexity of the step is astonishing.
Hot oil bath to get the gears on, Plastigage checking each rod clearance before final bolts, a crazy circlip that doesn't have holes for a circlip tool... I'm in for a ride.

I thought the transmission was a lot, but this is far more.

OsoMoore 08-27-2025 06:27 AM

Looking for input on if the Harbor Freight measurement tools are sufficient quality and precision for the engine tolerance measuring I need to do.

I'm seeing measurements specified to 0.0xx level. Will these be good enough? Also, is an Aluminum Oxide pad right for gentle scrubbing? Or do I need one that is more plastic to fill the "Scotchbrite Pad" role?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1756304718.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1756304718.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1756304718.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1756304718.jpg

Henry Schmidt 08-27-2025 06:59 AM

I inherited a bunch of Harbor tools after buying a bankrupt engine shop and the quality was atrocious. We literally tossed them in the waste bin.
The snap gages are probably OK but if you're looking to hold .0005" why not spend a little more and enjoy the quality.

Most of our tools are Brown & Sharpe, Mitutoyo and Starrett.

Edit: As I'm writing this my machinist just told me even telescoping gages should be high quality. Apparently, the locking mechanism can move when tightened on cheap tools.

OsoMoore 08-27-2025 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 12522951)
I inherited a bunch of Harbor tools after buying a bankrupt engine shop and the quality was atrocious. We literally tossed them in the waste bin.
The snap gages are probably OK but if you're looking to hold .0005" why not spend a little more and enjoy the quality.

Most of our tools are Brown & Sharpe, Mitutoyo and Starrett.

Edit: As I'm writing this my machinist just told me even telescoping gages should be high quality. Apparently, the locking mechanism can move when tightened on cheap tools.

That's what I was afraid of. I carefully kept the receipt.

CNB 09-02-2025 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OsoMoore (Post 12521652)
I ordered a bunch of lint-free cloths, but I need to figure out what is the best solvent to use for cleaning these various parts.

Also, I need to figure out how I should be protecting the new steel parts from rust while I work through assembly. My garage is not temp or climate controlled, and I don't want rust while I'm working through it.

Good quality brake clean works fine for cleaning.

Regarding rust, a light coat of WD40 should do the trick. There is always the corrosion inhibiting "wax" paper which you can wrap the parts in. Hit of WD, wrap in the corrosion inhibiting paper, seal in a bag.


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