I just got a set of 930 goetz rings and was suprised to find that they are plain iron rings instead of molly. I am pretty sure the originals were molly rings.

The term "buyer beware" applies to all automotive products. Unless the mfg specifically states his product is so and so, do not assume anything. Even if he states what his product is, double check it.

The aftermarket is a vast wasteland of stuff the original mfg did not want.

1972_911T asked the question again.

I just spoke with the rep at a coating company that a respected Porsche supply shop uses for refurbishing Nikasil cylinders. He told me that their medium diamond stones, which they use on Porsche cylinders, results in an average surface roughness of about 10. He mentioned that their fine stones would result in a RA of 3 and their coarse stones would result in a 20. Anyway, my cylinders were coated at this company, so they now have an RA of 10. Henry says that's too rough for the Goetze rings that I have for my pistons. So, what to do? Perhaps polish-up the cylinders with red Scotchbrite?

I have found more info on the so called Sunnen solution to "re honing" these type of cylinders. Its a jonney come lately solution to a problem that the grape style hones called flex hones solved years earlier. Sunnen could not get around the patents for flex hones so they worked at it for more than a year. What they came up with is essencially the exact same thing, only it cost a lot more and dosn't work as well as the flex hone for plateau honing and or cleaning up this type of cylinder for a new set of rings. I would suggest calling the flex hone company and see what they recommend.

Remember, these "hones" do not remove a lot or even a significant ammount of metal. like a stone hone can. They just condition the surface for the rings. A superfine stone hone could do the same thing, if it were hard enough, but it isn't. Flex hones are made of silicone carbide, very hard stuff. Contrary to popular misbelief silicone paste dosen't deposit any more silicone in the cylinder than a silicone carbide flex hone does. The flex hone is typically $50 ea vs $280 or so for a Sunnen one that only lasts half as long. Not to mention you can use a common drill to do it vs a very expensive honing machine.

Silicone paste is a Sunnen SCAM, nothing more. Scotch brite pads seem to do as well or better.

PS Diamond hones are EXACTLY like stone hones, only harder, ie they cut harder cylinders. No magic in them at all.

At this point I would recommend using a flex hone to clean up the 10 ra finish, ie plateau hone it and go with your rings. I have absolutely no doubt that the flex hone will remove any bad peaks from the cylinders and leave a ring friendly finish.

The last 3.0 that I did had Alusil and I had them honed with the sunnen process. Nearly instant ring seat and that motor was very strong when all broken in.

CHeers

Snowman the flex hone leaves the cylinder an RA of 10.5 when used as the manufacturer recommends. 10.5 is too rough to get good life from your rings.

Like I stated earlier: “The truth is not dependent on your belief”. In other words “it’s true, weather you believe it or not”.

Depends on which grit you choose. The correct flex hone is IDENTICAL to the same grit paste. One system holds the grit in suspension in a solid paste, the other in suspension in a felt type material. The grit is exactly the same stuff and works the same way, it abrades. The abrasion process is slightly differen't than a stone in that it smeers as well as cuts, which is desirable in this case as the rings do the same, but take much longer to do it and wear out on the process. A diamond hone with a finer finish, say a 3 ra, would still leave the sharp peaks that are detramental to rings, although not as bad as the 10 ra would be. This smeering, if you can call it that, or plateauing, is a very desirable finish for the rings and is the magic that is needed for prompt seating and long life.

Henry, since you are in the business, try talking, in depth to the manufacturer of the flex hone, try what they recommend, and then report back on what you find. You may find that you haven't been trying it the way the manufacturer intends it to be tried. Another way of saying that you can't always trust the literature the manufacturer puts out, but also have to talk to them extensively to really understand what they ment to say but didn't do so well. Same for Sunnen, they may have lied by ommission, understandable if your selling their stuff. I have talked to people "in the know" for sure, and thats what they say happened.

I've done my research, now you get a chance. Perform the research, post your results.
Talk to anyone you want, bury your head in the sand or just believe what the manufacturer tells you.
At this point , I posted the results of my test (after doing it as the manufacturer recommends) and personal experience. You see, I would like to just whip out a $40 hone, make a couple of passes and send it on it's way. Let's face it, that what we all want, a cheap way around doing things right. The problem is, that's not good enough for those who want to do it the best way possible.

Snowman: I see you're still welding bolt's in wrist pins.:)

I wonder how many people are buying your rock and chisel approach to Porsche repair.

Hey, the bolts still there, even at 8000rpm!. I see youall must own one of them there Sunnen things. It really is the best for the rest of the steps, but not that final plateau one. There its just the same, but cost a whole lot more. Remember that picture where I showed the Porsche cylinder in a Sunnen hone, I can do it that way, its just not the way that makes sense. I got one of those felt things, tried it, same result.

I am trying to like you Henry but your getting a bit abrasive...I do not know who is right in the current spar of words...but what are you bringing up a old argument for? You know there is more then one way to do things????? not just your way........and I have no doubt that you both know how to,, I think we need to respect all sides dont you??
I believe Wayne has privileged us (and himself) for the with this forum for our benifit . I belive it is a great education here (We are all part of the Borg) and we all benifit with this education,You me and Snowman.

I appreciate that you're trying to like me but the truth is that not everyone will. I post here to help those who want my help. If you are offended by my manner, I apologize.
I am good at what I do, I have made most of the mistakes you can make building Porsche engines and learned from them.
When someone tries to say that what I say is wrong, I want them to prove it to me. I am willing to do the same. and when I'm wrong I admit it.
I consider what I do an art and when people make light of it, I will get offended.
When you challenge my expertise, it's like challenging me to a duel. If dueling is not your bag, stay on the porch.
Don't bring a knife to a gun fight.
That is what you do when you bring your one engine rebuild experience up again my 400+ engine rebuilds.

I'll bet now liking me is even harder.
Cheers

Henry
No....I am appreciating where you are coming from....If some one is wrong, they DO have to be told so, (hopefully pleasantly) or we all make the same mistake or pass on a stupid rumor.
Its good to know you are humble enough to admit you too make mistakes..(If you dont do nothing you cant make a mistake). That makes you OK with me.
What I was referring to was the shot in the past, -not necessary.
Nobody is liked if you try to please everybody

What shot?

the welded nut weight argument

I raced motorcycles professionally in a youth, flown airplanes since the age of 16, was on the grift in my early 20s, been married 3 times and build Porsche engines and race cars for a living.
You might detect a touch of testosterone pulsing through my veins. I believe that this board is rich with testosterone.

If you are looking for "pleasant" perhaps a trip to The Victoria Secrets chat room where they discuss elastic properties of the latest G-string panties "pleasantly" might suit you better.:)

The welded bolt thing?
Even my girl friend would have let go of hard feelings about that by now. But we could still joke about it.

How do you like me now?

Oh yea well I did a year in Viet Nam dose that mean I have to taint everything with a war over tone???? Or have a Flash Back?? Hell No Henry And I do not need to bring up all My life's accomplishments and all my exploits and all my wrongs to prove I am the greatest (cause I ain't!) You can not take a little critiquing......all thoe for a moment I thought you might....Now you think testosterone ..you have the market??

Thank you for your service.

The title of the board is "911 Engine Rebuilding Forum".
If you want to critique my knowledge about Porsche engine rebuilding Be My Guest.

When you critique my personality, I'll give as good as I get.

Darn it Henry, the first sign of someone that can't take the heat is to go off on some nonsensical thing. I don't think you are that kind of guy so let it be, already. The darn bolt thing was ment to set you off, and it did, think about it. But the darn thing really did work, so I will be darned and use it to my full atvantage. Clearly something that one would NOT do on a routine basis or as part of a normal business, but in certain situations it could be looked at as being what saved the race or heroic. So NEVER say po po to any way of doing something. THINK about what was done, could it work, if so, say , darn, what will I see next.

I will give you an example. I had a technician that worked for me a about 30 years ago. A very very intelligent man that was Very creative. He had done extensive mods to Air Force 1 and made all kinds of things work, very very creative things. He had been wrenching things since 1942 or so, and at very high levels, think of it, you don't get to work on AF 1 unless your GOOD.. I told him that I had to use a wrench to short out the starter solinoid to get my car started to get to work that day. Instead of taking about how to fix the basic problem the frist thing he came up with was a rope and wrench connected to the drivers compartment. Pull on the rope to start the car. HE was completely SERIOUS about his soluition, and it would have worked, for a very long time if I had used it. Bottom line, there is more than one way to do things. And if it WORKS, it WORKS.

My turn
Snowman, if we go back to how this started. Some one asks a question about what works.

I search my experience, I do some research and posted the results. You come in and do you challenge the results or the test method ? No you just make wild ass statements about how you would do or have done something.
This is not new math. The answer does matter.
The people on this post are entitled to the best answer possible and when we compromise the answers with "well it works for me or it's just as good" when it clearly isn't, does this post a disservice.

If a customer of mine had a starter problem and I hooked a rope to his $70K Porsche I would have to hide my head in shame. Your story is cute but not very compelling.