Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > 911 Engine Rebuilding Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Northern V.A.
Posts: 18
Better than the monster?

OK.... Question? What if you were going to build the ultimate engine on a 930. How would you build it? Ground up... Entire car! Try to think about how you could make a beast that would top the monster....The donor motor is an 85 3.0 stock. That is what we are using. What mods are required. I want to hear from all of you HP junkies out there. The more responses, and the more technical the better. We want to make sure this bad boy doesn't miss anything on the way up. Once completed, dyno numbers will be posted.

Thanks....

P.S. - Driveability is an issue...So Keep that in mind. This car will serve a dual purpose. It must be streetable and a devil on the track.
Old 10-23-2004, 06:11 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
ChrisBennet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nashua, NH USA
Posts: 8,089
Just curious, what's "The Monster" ?
-Chris
__________________
'80 911 Nogaro blue Phoenix!
'07 BMW 328i Coupe
http://members.rennlist.org/messinwith911s/
Old 10-23-2004, 07:37 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Bill Verburg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 23,176
Garage
Talk to Steve Kasper or Rick Deman
__________________
Bill Verburg
'76 Carrera 3.6RS(nee C3/hotrod), '95 993RS/CS(clone)
| Pelican Home |Rennlist Wheels |Rennlist Brakes |
Old 10-23-2004, 08:24 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Super Moderator
 
cstreit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Naperville, IL USA
Posts: 13,086
Garage
I think it's generally the Turbo built by Stephen Kaspar at ImagineAuto... '79 930 3.6L Twin Turbo 700+BHP

__________________
Chris
----------------------------------------------
2008 Yamaha R6
2001 GT3 Cup - "Pepin"
1999 Spec Miata
1996 993 RS Replica
1971 Norton 750 Commando
Alcon Brake Kits
Old 10-23-2004, 08:26 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Northern V.A.
Posts: 18
A couple of guys up here want to build a very reliable motor that runs spectacular. We just want to use the best info out there to build a very reliable and powerful motor. We arent out to break records, but we want to build something exciting. So, we wanted to pick a few brians to see if there are any good ideas we didnt think of. A test platform. Also, the reason we want to beat the monster is because that engine was a good benchmark of ingenuity and precision. Thanks for the help.
Old 10-23-2004, 08:33 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 75
Alpha1 -
I'm in NoVA too....I'm curious to see what you find out. I am also looking to build a motor for my 911/993 race car project.

Check out Pat Williams Racing for some ideas.....

Are you just going to do DE's at Summit?....or are you going to get serious with the car like club racing?
Old 10-29-2004, 04:24 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
Registered User
 
juan ruiz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,024
Garage
Why use a 3.0 liter engine ? if that was me............

3.6 TT
2 T-70S Garretts
Custom Intercooler, Headers, Intake Manifold
1200s Injectors
Internals coated
EFI
Tilton Clutch
and the list is end less..............$$$$$$$$$$$$

__________________
10.76@139-1/4 mile
0-1 mile 193MPH
I Love to Shine Cars
Old 10-30-2004, 03:07 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
beepbeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Sweden
Posts: 5,567
There is no stock 911 engine made in 1985 that is displacing 3.0 liters. 930's had 3.3L and Carreras 3.2L engines in 1985.

Other than that, I'm with Juan on this one. your best and cheapest alternative for attaining lot's of power is selling your stock engine, whatever it is and going for turbo-converted N/A 3.6 engine.

Note that you shouldn't look for 3.6 Turbo engine but naturally aspirated 3.6 engine, from 964 or such.

It's then matter of changing pistons and rods to better/stronger aftermarket items with lower C/R, fitting a good EFI and dual or single turbochargers together with new headers.

Two T70 turbochargers would be too big and lag too irritating in anything else but dragracing, but two GT30BB's would fit just perfect.

Building a powerful engine is black science where you have to take account of different aspects like:

1. How much power?
2. Can i do it with my stock engine or is it cheaper/easier/better just to sell it and buy a better base to build on?
3. How much can I do myself?
4. Has it been done before and are there any expensive misstakes that I can learn from?

Unfortunately, many people are stuck to some sort of emotional ties to their stock engines and pour insane amounts of money in order to tune them despite the fact that they are bad fundaments to build hi-po engine on to begin with... It's even worse with N/A engines.
This behaviour leads to costly excursions of "I've spent 13000$ on bored-out CIS motor to get 30hp extra" -type.

It's much better to keep head cold and understand that budget for building such engine might be bigger than what base engine costs itself and that there are big savings to be done by just getting what you need (case, heads, crank, intake) and building on it with custom parts knowing that you cannot re-use stock parts anyway.

Reason I stated turbo-converted 3.6 motor as best/most priceworthy base for no-holds-barred hi-po 911 motor are following:

1. It's already twin-plugged.
2. It's cheaper than 3.6TT which is single plugged.
3. You have no use of its OEM pistons, rods and turbocharger anyway, so buying 3.6TT engine isn't of any good.
4. All 3.6 engines are allready built for EFI (fuel-rails are there) while 930 engines have pesky CIS system and bad-flowing intake and heads.
5. I have a friend who did all above, I have seen his (very impressive) dyno papers.

Alternatives when building 400+ HP engines:

930 engines are cheap to tune to approximately 350hp...after that it gets costly. There is nothing magical about them compared to 3.2 motors. You will spend more money to rectify their inherent weaknes compared with starting with stock 3.2 motor if gunning for 400HP+ range.

3.2 Carrera engines are little better. It's cheaper to make big power engines from them but they will never come to 3.6 output as long as you don't swap almost everything, effectivly making them like 3.6 engines.

3.6 engines are the best, have all updates done and bigger displacement to boot. 600HP is possible and relativly easy.


So my final suggestion:

Throw all emotional/traditionalistic thinking through the window and think purely from engineering/economic standpoint.

3.6 N/A stock engine from totaled car, prefferably w/o engine harness (=cheaper)
JE pistons, Carillo rods, 8.0:1 C/R
2 x GT30BB turbochargers (BB=ball bearing)
6 x 903cc Siemens injector
custom intercooler and headers
dual throttles
GT2 Evo cams
Motec EFI with twin-plug direct-fire ignition
Stock flywheel (trust me on this)
Heads don't need to be ported
Stronger valve springs if running more than 1.2 bar of boost (trust me on this)
G50/52 transmission with Guard Transmission billet cro-molly LSD and oil-cooling
Fitting KEP clutch.
Coilovers all around (a must if fitting G50 transmission)
__________________
Thank you for your time,

Last edited by beepbeep; 10-30-2004 at 09:40 AM..
Old 10-30-2004, 06:39 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Northern V.A.
Posts: 18
You Are correct!

I was wrong in my assurmation. I have a Euro 3.3L engine. But, why sell when I could upgrade to a 3.5L conversion? Also, I am looking for complete reliabilty with power. Something yo can drive on the street, but track on the weekends. I know there are alot of options, but I want it done right. Knowing that, the options list must narrow.
Old 11-02-2004, 01:43 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Northern V.A.
Posts: 18
Engine Ties!

As for the engine ties, I am not emotionally tied...But I do not see the market for selling this engine....As well, arent the Euro Blocks stronger than the US counterparts?

I have been looking for a 3.6.

As for the suspension, I plan on going to coilover. I see H&R have a nice set for this model.
Old 11-02-2004, 01:48 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
beepbeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Sweden
Posts: 5,567
Euro 3.3 cases are just the same as US 3.3 cases which are just the same as Carrera cases. No difference in strength...

About not selling your 3.3:

Listen, do you want to build a monster engine or just warmed-over 930? If you gunning for hi-power then 3.3 is a bad choice to start with. There are just to many things that need to be rectified on that motor that it's probably not worth it. "Seeing a marked for the engine" is least of your worries...it's just a way of lessening financial impact of building a hot-rod engine.

If you sell your euro 3.3 you might get enough money to buy 3.6 N/A engine and you'll have a nice fundament to begin with. It will already have dual-plug head, bigger displacement, better intake with fuel rails etc etc.

If you start with 930 you will spend more than 3.6 engine is worth just to get somewhere on-par with 3.6...before turbo stuff comes into picture.

3.4L-pistons and cylinders will cost couple of thousands.
Dual-plugging will cost a lot.
New plenum with fuel-rails will cost a lot.

When that's done you'll have engine with 0.2L less volume than 3.6 that still needs all basic work done...header welding, intercooler fabrication, EFI-trigger fabrication, new camshafts, EFI-mapping etc. etc.

It's just a bad start IMHO.

You started this thread sounding like you want a monster engine...If you just want a warmed-over 930 then go and buy 1-bar boost spring and better intercooler and you'll be done.
__________________
Thank you for your time,

Last edited by beepbeep; 11-03-2004 at 05:50 PM..
Old 11-03-2004, 04:28 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
rick conrath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 714
I was originally going to build up my 3.3 to end up with a 3.4 Twin turbo based on a 993 TT exhaust setup (I actually bought the prototype exhaust headers that Stephen used to mock up the "Monster"). After I did the math, and looked at all of the changes, I decided to go with a 3.6 993. Since the 993 has the right alloy heads, and everything from the 993 TT bolts up to the NA engine, it was a "no brainer". You can pick up a good 993 core these days for $3,500 or less. In the end you will have an easy 600hp with the right combination of 993 TT parts.
Rick
'78 930
Old 11-05-2004, 12:37 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
 
Author of "101 Projects"
 
Wayne 962's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Aplha1
A couple of guys up here want to build a very reliable motor that runs spectacular.
There is no such thing. Extreme power and reliability are almost mutually exclusive. The Carrera GT is a V10 with 600 NA horsepower - you can't squeeze that much HP out of a six cylinder without sacrificing reliability. The 935s got 800HP out of their engines, but they were designed to run for 24 hours...

-Wayne
__________________
Wayne R. Dempsey, Founder, Pelican Parts Inc., and Author of:
101 Projects for Your BMW 3-Series 101 Projects for Your Porsche 911 How to Rebuild & Modify Porsche 911 Engines 101 Projects for Your Porsche Boxster & Cayman 101 Projects for Your Porsche 996 / 997 SPEED READ: Porsche 911 (October 2018)

Check out our new site: Dempsey Motorsports
Old 11-05-2004, 02:25 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Northern V.A.
Posts: 18
I dont feel that way. If done correctly, you should be able to have a moderate engine that can devlop that horsepower and still be reliable. You just have to be creative with squeezing out every HP when building such a motor. That is the main reason I posted this Q....Since this is my first buildup on a Porsche, I wanted some opinions on how they would build such an engine. Then, I would sort through and develop a game plan.
Old 11-06-2004, 06:07 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Northern V.A.
Posts: 18
As well, I have decided to go the 3.6 route. It does make sense in having an updated engine that is easier to develop.
Old 11-06-2004, 06:09 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
vichang4's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 132
Quote:
Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
There is no such thing. Extreme power and reliability are almost mutually exclusive. The Carrera GT is a V10 with 600 NA horsepower - you can't squeeze that much HP out of a six cylinder without sacrificing reliability. The 935s got 800HP out of their engines, but they were designed to run for 24 hours...

-Wayne
I agree with Wayne. Displacement = HP. The GT has 5.7 liters and 600 hp. Thats 105 hp/liter. 15 years ago 100 hp/liter engines were only seen on the race track. Now with better everything being built into engines over 100 hp/liter is being seen on the street. A 3.3 liter engine would be 181! hp/liter. WOW, only with turbochargering. Even a 3.6 engine is 167 hp/liter. Using a 1.3 to 1 turbo conversion the 3.6 turbo is 4.7 liters, which would still make it 128 hp/liter. This much HP means reduced reliability.
__________________
Victor Toce
2000 Boxster S w/
Tequipment exhaust
1993 Spec Miata
87 911 turbo - sold
3.4 RUF pistons and cylinders
Euro CIS head
Old 11-06-2004, 09:41 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Northern V.A.
Posts: 18
Yes, but with new technology, comes efficiencies that were not applicable as well. Thus, allowing for more HP per Liter...I understand that there is a limit to the amount of HP that is reliable, thus the reason I want suggestions. So far, I am considering this setup:
3.6 with 8.5:1 for low end response.
Old 11-08-2004, 04:01 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
Registered User
 
juan ruiz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,024
Garage
If done correctly, you should be able to have a moderate engine that can develop that horsepower and still be reliable.

Thats the secret........


Bellos was runing 960RWHP, He drove the car from New Jersy to Florida, ran 9 sec passes and drove it back, he did it, half a dozen times, is that realiable ?

We still finding more and more power, we still have a/c, dyno runs, 1/4 mile runs, drive it on the street, is that realiable ?

Of course that just my 0.02......

__________________
10.76@139-1/4 mile
0-1 mile 193MPH
I Love to Shine Cars
Old 11-09-2004, 02:02 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Jackson, Ms
Posts: 137
Send a message via Yahoo to Groovy911SC
I don't know about you guys but I love reading BeepBeep's posts. I appreciate the fact the he takes the time to answer this guys question in detail.
That is what makes this board so valuable. I would never be exposed to this much information without spending serious time and money traveling to places where these experts reside.
I've just completed my first 3.0 ltr rebuild and am considering a turbo for my next project. Having all this information available helps me in deciding which direction to go next!
__________________
1980 911SC
One day will be "G" Stock PCA racer
Old 11-09-2004, 07:33 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:28 AM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.