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Now in 993 land ...
 
aigel's Avatar
 
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With all the money you are spending, why not sell your car and start with a smog excempt year that gives you complete freedom to put whatever you want in the engine compartment? If you like the later model looks, it's easy to put flares on a mid year car, say a 75 and end up with a mid 80s look.

I hope you are aware that you will not be smog legal, even if your pipe emissions are good. There is a visual inspection that will check things like timing, ignition etc. to be what that year engine calls for. It will take only one good smog tech to pick up on your mods and you will be in bad shape. I read on this board, that a guy tried to pass off a 3.0 for a 2.7 and got nailed, because the 2.7 has different advance than the 2.7, all other things looking practically the same.

I had to go to a smog only station, and reading this board, it looks like all 911s are now getting "profiled" and requested to go to a "smog only". No way you will be able to have a tech close an eye there.

Just a few thoughts. I like your engine build plans, but I'd rather see them coming from TX or AL.

George
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Old 02-06-2005, 12:22 AM
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test
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Old 02-06-2005, 03:06 PM
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Hi George,
You are correct; the twin plug system will not pass a visual at the dreaded 'test only' station. The reason the 2.7/3.0 guy got nailed was because of the external vacuum advance was missing and it clued the technician in to the fact that things were not as they were supposed to be: stock.
The twin plug system would do the same thing. I will have to go back to the original plan, single plug with no modifications visible. The engine will run cleaner than my last 'test only', even with the modifications. Too bad the state has to be like this, the engine would burn even cleaner with the twin plug set up.
Hawaii has no smog laws.....
Thanks,
Drums
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Old 02-06-2005, 03:17 PM
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No place to drive in Hawaii.... Better move 2 TX!!
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Bill

69 911 T Targa, 2.4E w/carbs (1985-2001)
70 911 S Coupe, 2nd owner (1989- 2015)
73 911 T Targa, 3.2 Motronic (2001- )
Old 02-06-2005, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by drums
Hi George,
You are correct; the twin plug system will not pass a visual at the dreaded 'test only' station. The reason the 2.7/3.0 guy got nailed was because of the external vacuum advance was missing and it clued the technician in to the fact that things were not as they were supposed to be: stock.
I think the advance timing BTD is different at idle too. 5 on the SC and more on the 2.7. He basically would have to fake a 2.7 advance on the SC engine to make it pass.

We all agree, smog laws don't all make sense. I was looking forward to having my SC excempt, unfortunately that's never going to happen now. Time to move to NV and telecommute.

George
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Old 02-06-2005, 04:15 PM
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Hey Bill, George,
I live too close to the ocean and Yosemite and Texas is flat with no windy roads........
Do any of you know how to strengthen an ignition system? I am going to upgrade the spark plug wires and am looking for a higher output coil. Know of a good, hot coil that will work with the Motronic system ['89 3.2/3.4]?
Thanks,
Drums
Old 02-06-2005, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by drums
Hey Bill, George,
I live too close to the ocean and Yosemite and Texas is flat with no windy roads........
Do any of you know how to strengthen an ignition system? I am going to upgrade the spark plug wires and am looking for a higher output coil. Know of a good, hot coil that will work with the Motronic system ['89 3.2/3.4]?
Thanks,
Drums
The Motronic ignition is very good in stock form and doesn't need any "help" from "upgraded" wires or hotter coils.
-Chris
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Old 02-06-2005, 05:47 PM
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What Chris said. As far as ignition upgrades go, many swear by the MSD boxes. I think they buy you most on a carbureted setup though and much of it in the bottom end and idle. If my ignition box would go out, i'd get an MSD, but I would not spend money on it if my stock ignition still works.

George
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Old 02-06-2005, 06:12 PM
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Okay, I thought that sending a hotter spark might help in burning all of those nasty fuel molecules up. I am definately not going to swap out the Motronic system and have never considered it. Way back in the late 60s, in the VW club days, we used to put the Bosch Blue Coil in for a hotter spark. Didn't know if things like that were available for the Porsche.
Thanks,
Drums
Old 02-06-2005, 06:24 PM
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I am no expert, so correct me if I am wrong: One reason for twin plugging is the fact that in a very flat and wide area (as in high compression and large bore) the flame front travels too slow, to ignite the entire mix in time. A hotter spark won't cure this, since that just ignites the mix, it does not increase the speed at which the flame front travels.

MSD can be beneficial, and it does not mean that you have to give up the motronic. Check here for more info: http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/mult_MSD_install/mult_MSD_install.htm

Cheers, George
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Old 02-06-2005, 08:03 PM
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Thanks George,
This will be a new direction of adventure for me! I followed the link you provided and will read it a few more times plus the section in Waynes' rebuild book on ignition systems.
The linked article mentioned only non smog 2 cars could legally use this type of system, but I am going to look further into that, too.
Drums
Old 02-06-2005, 08:19 PM
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drums:

Yeah, there we go again. I didn't think about that at all... If the smog tech sees the MSD box, you will be in trouble. Any car guy recognizes them, since they are very common, especially on the US cars. Oh well. I guess there isn't much that you can do, without getting potentially in trouble!

Maybe it would be best to go with a 3.6 conversion, keeping the 3.6 specific smog and run it that way? That's completely legal and fairly straight forward. Yup, I think that will likely be the best way to go, without smog worries and without changing cars.

The other possibility is to keep a smog 3.2 around and build whatever you want to put in the car. At smog time, swap it back to stock. R&R the engine is about a full day's work at home if you have a bit of practise.

George
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Old 02-06-2005, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by aigel
One reason for twin plugging is the fact that in a very flat and wide area (as in high compression and large bore) the flame front travels too slow, to ignite the entire mix in time. A hotter spark won't cure this, since that just ignites the mix, it does not increase the speed at which the flame front travels.
Yupp. Twin plugs ignite the mixture from two ends, so everything goes "bang" faster than with single plug. This in turn allows you to run more aggressive ignition timing as combustion pressure in cylinder will rise quicker and thus spend more time forcing the piston downwards.

With single plug, in-cylinder pressure will raise lazily, and your ignition curve would be more of a compromise where rapid gas expansion will fight the piston moving upwards for longer time than with dual plugs.

Ideal engine would have pressure peak raising infinately quick and ignition timing fixed @ 0 deg TDC, to maximize force on the pistion. In reality, flame front takes it's time and the bigger the combustion chamber is the lazier the "bang" is, forcing us to cheat and stage ignition so it comes roughly in time.

sorry for going off-topic
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Old 02-07-2005, 05:39 AM
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Hey George,
I think I am going to stick to original plan of going to 3.4 liters, 9.8:1 JE pistons in rebored and plated cylinders, 964 cams, bored and polished throttle body, extrude honed intakes, a Steve Wong chip and a header system that will come out every 2 years.
I have tried to do as much as I can without drawing too much attention at smog time and I think this is it.
Drums
Old 02-07-2005, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by drums
Hey George,
I think I am going to stick to original plan of going to 3.4 liters, 9.8:1 JE pistons in rebored and plated cylinders, 964 cams, bored and polished throttle body, extrude honed intakes, a Steve Wong chip and a header system that will come out every 2 years.
I have tried to do as much as I can without drawing too much attention at smog time and I think this is it.
Drums
With this setup the dual distributor and possibly the exhaust will be the only tip offs that you aren't stock. I wonder if you could run the single distributor on unleadsed race gas with a custom chip on inspection day?
-Chris
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Old 02-07-2005, 06:52 AM
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Hello Chris,
I WAS considering a twin plug system but with the 'visual' the
smog tech does will automatically red tag my car. They won't
even run the smog test, they will just fail the car. There is an
arbitration process with a referee, but who wants to gamble
on that? New heads, labor, etc. No thanks, I'll just stick with the
single plug option and try to petition the California Air Resources Board to allow twin plugging because it burns so much cleaner on air and oil cooled engines [fat chance].
Drums
Old 02-07-2005, 08:05 AM
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Drums, this may help ease your mind. I just took my car through emmissions testing one hour ago. The engine is a 3.2, 9.5:1, 964 cams, SSI(not cat) I put the stock chip back in for the test.

Here are the results:

Dyno (load) test

HC allow 227ppm measured 83ppm
CO allow 1.61% measured .71%
NOx allow 2334ppm measured 689ppm

Idle test

HC allow 380ppm measured 181ppm
CO allow 4.33% measured 1.08%

Not the cleanest engine around, but passed fairly easily!!

Hope this helps,

Jeff
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Old 02-07-2005, 10:31 AM
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Hey Catca,
B.C. is pretty lenient! My max HC is 120 allowable. I wouldn't dare
show up with an ssi still installed!
How do those 964 cams work with the 3.2 [9.5:1]? Do you have any other enhancements like bored and polished throttle body, extrude honed intake manifolds, etc.?
Drums
Old 02-07-2005, 12:45 PM
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The only other thing on the car is a custom SteveW chip. The cams are great. No loss of bottom end, but a stronger hit around 3200 all the way to redline. Couldn't justify the manifold work and I think the throttle body mod is like fluching cash down the toilet! The cams won't dramaticaly change the car. But, IF you are in there anyway, they are a nice upgrade. Just trying to figure out what cam I am going to use in the 3.6 now! If you have a cat, you will have no problems with the 964 cams when it comes testing time.

Jeff
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Old 02-07-2005, 01:50 PM
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Hey Catca,
What do you mean by 3.6?
Drums
Old 02-07-2005, 05:23 PM
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