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3.2 going in right direction?

I don't have any place to turn for advice, so you guys are it. The local Porsche mechanic is 'old school' and doesn't believe in modifications. He is good but I will have to send all modification machine work out.
This is my first engine enhancement ever and I don't attempt any mechanic duties, period. I do have a brain and think I have come up with a good, sturdy engine modification design. Here goes....
It is an '89 3.2 and needs a rebuild. I plan on having EBS Racing bore the cylinders to 98mm, replate/Nikasil, JE pistons [from 9.5:1 to 9.8:1CR]. EBS Racing will take the heads apart, install new exhaust valves, install new valve springs in and out, polish exhaust port, drill for twin plugs [California gas, 98mm pistons],
964 cams [exchange].
The case will be boat tailed, the crank knife edged and balanced,
the Motronic system will stay in place and be enhanced with a '911Chips', GHL exhaust headers [complete kit], turbo oil restrictor upgrade, the throttle body will be honed and polished and the intake manifolds will be extrude honed, also.
The twin plug system will be operated with a 964 distributor and
a 'splitter' from Andial.
The only nagging question I have are the 964 cams. With this set up, will I be restricting the engine in any way? Don't forget-I live in the most restrictive smog state in the union. I know the 964 cams will pass smog.
Wayne alluded to the fact [in his book] that the smog laws are more stringent than what some cars were designed to perform. A case in point is mine-the state max on hydrocarbons is 120. The owners manual for my car states less than 330! With just at 200,000 miles, I was 120 [on the 'smog only'] when put on their dyno smog machine.
Thanks,
Drums
Old 02-04-2005, 05:55 PM
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Unless you are planning at running that thing at redline all day long the boat tailing and crank work is money wasted IMHO.

I also don't believe in restricting oil to the heads since that oil flow helps to keep CHT temps down.

Everyting else sounds pretty good though.

Some of the california guys can give you some better advice on what the most radical cam you can get away with is.
Old 02-04-2005, 06:11 PM
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I 2nd 350HP930's excellent advice.
I've done a 3.4 twin plug conversion. If you are going to twin plug it, go for 10.5:1 compression. Otherwise you are giving away horsepower. 9.8:1 is the upper limit of single plug so twin plugs are not doing really anything for you.
-Chris
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Old 02-04-2005, 07:03 PM
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Why the twin plug? Usual rule is if CR < 10.0, single plug is fine.
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Old 02-04-2005, 07:04 PM
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Hi Braun and Chris,
As Wayne explains it in his book, 98mm is the outside diameter capability of single plugs. With California gas being so weak [91 octane, max.], the restrictive smog laws [they are only going to get worse] and the diameter limit, I want to err on the safe side and make sure ALL of the fuel gets burned. With twin plugging, you can tweak the timing to fire at the optimal position in the piston stroke [and it helps to keep things cooler].
Hi 350hp930,
Thanks for the boat tailing/knife edging advice.
As for the oil restrictor upgrade, I thought [through Waynes' book] that it actually helped things run cooler by increasing pressure to places that needed it, otherwise why would it be called an 'upgrade'? I will read that section over again.
Thanks guys!
Drums
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Old 02-04-2005, 07:31 PM
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From what I have heard the mod was made to boost oil pressure.

I have never had any oil pressure problems that need to be corrected so I am more concerned about not restricting the flow of oil to the heads.

If memory serves me correctly it was a mod that was made to stock motors. In the case of a hot rod 911 head cooling becomes a priority.
Old 02-04-2005, 08:00 PM
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You can search my 3.2L to 3.5L engine build threads for some ideas. As you will find when your engine is completed, the power output can be quite good provided you get away from the std. heat exchangers and run a better exhaust. 255-265 crank horsepower is realistic for a street 3.4L twin-plug motor with the right modifications.

You WILL NOT get away with any more then 10:1 CR with 91 octane, even with twin plugs. 9.8:1 and twin-plugs will be a good, safe combo for 91 octane. Don't believe me? Talk to Andial. They will tell you the same thing. I have 9.5:1 CR in my 3.5L and have a special Steve W chip that retards the timing even more when the weather gets hot so the motor doesn't ping. Version 1 makes 239 at the wheels and Version 2 makes 246 at the wheels.

Your engine build plan sounds pretty good. I would really twin-plug regardless of compression ratio with the bigger bore for the extra safety margin it provides. Modesto can and does get awfully hot in the summer.

A 3.4L twin-plug with extrude honed plenums, bored throttle body, custom Steve Wong chip, SSI's or headers and 964 or Web 20/21 cams will make for a very nice and driveable street car. Either cam set listed above will pass CA smog. Obviously, SSI's or headers will not but putting the heat exchangers on every 2 years for the smog check and then back off takes a 1/2-3/4 day.

I went against the advice of the "experts" on this board and shuffle pinned the case after seeing a whole row of 3.0L and 3.2L cases at Ollies' Porsche Machining that were damaged due to case movement. George and Ike probably see more machine work then anyone else in the country and they also do the machine work for Andial and Porsche Motorsport. Both have been around for over 25 years and their experience carries more weight with me. Talk to various machine shops who do these day in and day out and then make your decisions regarding custom machine work.

Boattailing the case and mooning the cylinders are other individual choices, but I did those as well. Maybe I wasted some money, maybe not. Although I have never seen a dyno sheet that showed a horsepower gain, I also have never seen any dyno sheets that prove that these are a waste of money either. Frankly, I don't believe that anyone has ever done a before/after test. Again, talk to various machine shops who work with these motors day in and day out and make your decision based on their responses.

It sounds like you will have a nicely done motor in the near future, show some pics as you move along!

Ralph
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Last edited by Carrera3.5L; 02-04-2005 at 10:13 PM..
Old 02-04-2005, 09:30 PM
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Thanks Ralph,
Did you do a thread not too long ago about your 3.5? I followed that with interest. Is it still posted? I would like to review it. What was the threads' name?
Thanks for the encouragement,
Drums
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Old 02-04-2005, 11:13 PM
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Someone else here asked this question a while back. The 964 cams are very conservative IMO. The 20/21's are a good upgrade or better yet the SuperCup grind should work as far as passing emissions and increasing HP.

The one area in cam profiles that adveresly affect emissions quality is the overlap between the intake and exhaust 'hang-time' or lobe centerline. As you climb the ladder for more aggressive profiles the overlap starts to affect idle low speed driveability and of course emissions. The more agrressive profiles are designed to run at a higher rpm so there is a trade-off in efficiency at lower engine speeds.

The SuperCup grind is 1 degree tighter lobe seperation than the stock profile. Yes it does have more lift and duration but the action or ramp acceleration is much quicker as well. It should be no problem because you are also increasing total displacement .

John (Camgrinder) may chime in here, but I don't see any issue with emissions with either the 20/21's or the SuperCup grind in your build.
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Old 02-05-2005, 08:58 AM
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Wow, I didn't know that the supercup would pass emissions in california.

Thats that grind I picked as a hot streetable cam for the 930.
Old 02-05-2005, 09:05 AM
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I have to stay with a tamed down version because of the emissions laws here in Ca. We have the most restrictive smog laws in the nation. The state is trying to force older cars off of the road. And I thought socialists only had the best interest of the poor in mind......
My main question on the 964 cams is what effect they will have on the engine configuration I have planned.
Drums
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Old 02-05-2005, 09:37 AM
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The poor should take public transportation. Those of us with money for proper car maintenance and insurance would benefit from such a move.
Old 02-05-2005, 09:48 AM
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I'm basing what I know here from the lift/duration/centerline specs on the stock SC vs 964 vs 20/21's vs SuperCup. I've spoken with John at length about my build and the most aggressive grind that was available to work with Motronic.

Looking at the specs for the SuperCup grind there should be no reason that a properly built engine shouldn't pass. The engine is just an air pump with the cam profile dictating at what rpm range it will operate efficiently.

The larger the total displacement; the less sensitive it will be to one particular cam profile. IE: 3.2 / Motronic with SuperCup about as aggressive as one could go. A 3.6 / Motronic could use a more agressive profile to achieve the same % increase in HP/TQ.
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Old 02-05-2005, 09:50 AM
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I am pretty sure John can grind the Super Cup cam with the 114 degree lobe center, but check with him. I believe he and I had talked about it.

Jeff
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Old 02-05-2005, 10:52 AM
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The problem with a more aggresive cam profile in a smog repressive state such as California [this is coming to your state, too] is that they measure a few things beside hydrocarbons. If I am correct, the one [emission] that is adversly effected by an aggressive cam profile is what is reffered to as nox. High compression can be identified by a certain emission, too. Fellas, you have no idea [if you don't live in California] how difficult it is to make sure you don't cross the line. If my toe crosses any one of the states' lines, I get to take my engine apart and correct it. As stated in an earlier post, the owners manual [for an '89 3.2] states that the hydrocarbon measurement should be below 330. The state requires that number to be 120 or less, but out of the other side of their mouth state that my car has to meet original manufacturers' specs. Whichever of their rules is more stringent is the one that takes precedence. So yes, I am very paranoid because when the engine starts to wear, how close to the line I originally built it, it will be much closer, if not over that line in any one of many measurements.
Maybe we all will be taking government transportation someday.......
Drums
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Old 02-05-2005, 11:21 AM
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If you are going with a programmable EFI you can come up with a barely streetable tune that will pass emissions and then switch back to a 'normal' tune when you pass tech.
Old 02-05-2005, 11:53 AM
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I am going to stay with the Motronic system and have '911Chips' [Steve Wong] make a couple of custom EPROMS.
Drums
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Old 02-05-2005, 12:05 PM
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Actually I do know, I live in a place that has testing at least as strict as yours! Steve can help you out. If the motor runs too lean the NOX goes up I believe. THere is a balance there that can be achieved with the motor you are planning. Lots of folks in California have done these mods before.
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Old 02-05-2005, 01:03 PM
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Hi catca,
B.C.! Yes, you guys have it bad up there, too. B.C. was part of my territory in the mid eighties as a rep for a manufacturing company. Why does socialism concentrate on the coasts? It then eats its' way into the heartland.
Lets' enjoy our gas burners while we can!
Does anyone know what the carachteristics of 964 cams would be in my set up? Good low end, bad low end, mostly mid to upper power gains, a little better than stock all the way through the rpm range........?
Drums
Old 02-05-2005, 05:58 PM
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I have a similair set up. Car has good low end, no worse than stock, and pulls a little better from around 3200 on up. If you go the twinplug route, I have a 964 distributor for sale!!

Cheers, Jeff
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Old 02-05-2005, 07:12 PM
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