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How about friction coatings....anybody try em?

www.calicocoatings.com and www.casidiam.com have coatings to help reduce coefficient of kinetic friction. Note, this is not a thermal barrier product. Anybody have any experience with these??

Jaime
Old 09-25-2005, 06:24 PM
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The objective is to....?
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Old 09-26-2005, 05:56 AM
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We use calico for coating our pistons and doing the chambers and ports on our heads. Anatech (which is the developer of Casidiam) makes a great product. We've used it on cams, valves, lifters, rocker shafts, rocker faces, pushrod ends- you name it, we've tried it. We've even used it on valve stems and seen an appreciable reduction in wear and temperature. When trying to push the limit or seek the ultimate in longevity, both companies provide killer services.
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Old 09-26-2005, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
The objective is to....?


...........reduce coefficient of kinetic friction...?

Jaime
Old 09-26-2005, 08:42 AM
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Help me -- I'm not an engineer. What does friction in Connecticut have to do with our 911's? What's the objective. Increase HP? reduce wear? improve reliability? Reduce lap times? Reduce operating costs? Reduce wallet weight?

Just because it provides 15% improvement in efficiency (as they often say on Star Trek) doesn't necessarily mean that it provides a performance gain nor make it a good investment.

I'm not knocking friction reducing coatings -- just trying to understand the "problem statement" that friction reducing coatings is the answer to.
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"It's a poor craftsman who blames their tools" -- Unknown
"Any suspension -- no matter how poorly designed -- can be made to work reasonably well if you just stop it from moving." -- Colin Chapman
Old 09-26-2005, 09:13 AM
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Primarily reduce friction and wear when it comes to the Casidiam coating. It was originally pioneered years ago for use on Ti valves to make them actually wear at a normal rate. Similar technology is currently being put into production cars with the new Z06, which has Ti valves :-) Although cost prohibitive, they have taken nikasil cylinders and further casidiam coated the bores to further reduce friction. Saw it in action at the PRI show a few years back. Does that help?
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Old 09-26-2005, 09:25 AM
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Hi John. As Charles states, it adds few microns of a harder, though thin, coating that changes the surface of metals, sort of like coating with diamond if you will. Theoretically, it should impart a longer lasting, slippery characteristics that act against friction which is what eventually slows our engines and also "ages" them.

Jaime
Old 09-26-2005, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jluetjen

I'm not knocking friction reducing coatings -- just trying to understand the "problem statement" that friction reducing coatings is the answer to.
Problem statement - My 930 motor is air and oil cooled and is very expensive to rebuild. Although it is reliable, heat can significantly reduce engine life and horsepower.

By coating the piston skirts, I have decreased its coefficient of friction, thereby lowering heat and making the four stroke process a bit more efficient. I also had the piston domes ceramic coated to guard against detonation damage and reflect heat. Heat disbursant coatings to the outside of the cylinder helps move heat away from the top third to the rest of the cylinder.

Was it worth it? The ceramic coating seems to have helped the detonation thing, since my motor burned up a couple of months ago with no distortion to the pistons or ring grooves. I think it cost me $25 each to have the pistons dry lubed and ceramic coated. I did not see the value in coating the springs, rockers, and so on.
Old 09-26-2005, 10:20 AM
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The Casidiam procress (also known as DLC- diamond like carbon) is a only a few microns thick- non-dimensional, whereas the coatings from Calico do add a measurable thickness, usually a minimum of .001". The only coating that I have not seen a measurable improvement on has been the thermal dispersants except on cast iron.
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Old 09-26-2005, 11:56 AM
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OK. I wasn't trying to be a "dick" -- although it may have sounded like it. Often people (especially newbies) post "solutions", like -- "Anyone try the new cool coller from XYZ company to reduce engine temperatures???". The answers are often just as vague: "Sure, been using it for 10 years and my engine runs great! The best things that ever happened to Porsches!" The end result is zero shared learning by the Pelican Community.

General questions often result in general answers and repeated conventional wisdoms. You get those sort of things from any number of sources. That's why I was trying to push you a little bit to be more specific. Is your application street or track? DE or competition? For use on springs or pistons? Is there a specific problem (I'm spending $X replacing valve springs every month) or is it a "Gee this is neat" engine improvement? This helps to focus the responses a little bit and get you a better answer. For example notice that a couple of the responses were regarding the thermal coatings rather then the friction coatings like you asked.

My apologes for not coming across well. Welcome to the board -- we're not always this difficult. At least I'm not!

BTW - What sort of car do you have?
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Last edited by jluetjen; 09-26-2005 at 12:03 PM..
Old 09-26-2005, 11:58 AM
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Hi John. No appologies needed and I didn't think you were being a di_ _. I've read how formula one had a new trick up their sleeve some 15 years ago and thought to myself that one day I'd like to check this out (ceramic and friction coatings)on a special sports car. Now you can get almost any metal treated and is no longer a secret.

My car is a 1993 America Roadster that has a transplanted engine/trans/AWD/brakes from a 1996 993tt. It has JIC Cross all four corners, RUF ecu/cams/130mm, 100cell cats. I'm getting the entire exhaust ceramic coated by Swain technnologies in NY. When I need to get into the case I'd like to check out these friction coatings and just wanted to see what people here thought of them.

Thank you for the welcome.

Jaime
Old 09-26-2005, 04:57 PM
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I didn't take it that way either - sorry my post was worded the way it was.
Old 09-26-2005, 05:22 PM
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I thought you were a di_ _ ! Just kidding! I have looked into coatings as well and read a few threads..... I am just not sold on them yet, not sure why. Does anyone know if they will "save" an engine or how much increased life one can expect out of the coated parts as compared to uncoated similar parts used in the same manner?

Cheers,
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Old 09-26-2005, 06:01 PM
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Jeff,

One coating I have seen time and time again prove itself in race situations is Calico's bearing coating. I even had a customer who could not get bearings in time for a race engine and had his trashed used bearings coated and it got him through the weekend and even afterwards the bearing didn't look all that bad. There are guys here locally that I know that run blown alcohol drag engines 2400-3000+ hp and they religiously coat everything but even then when their high-speed lean out triggers with too much advance at 60lbs+ of boost, there's not much you can do to save things. :-)
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Old 09-27-2005, 05:30 AM
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DonE's problem statement is a good explaination for the WHY- "My 930 motor is air and oil cooled and is very expensive to rebuild. Although it is reliable, heat can significantly reduce engine life and horsepower."

Probably the most applicable coating to the 911 would be the casidiam coating on the valve stems which reduce wear and lower temperatures. This reduces over time the smoking caused by worn guides and in essence can get you further without having to do a top end rebuild.

Coating the bearings would provide a secondary lubricant for cold start ups and momentary loss of lubrication and also protect from scuffing during low pressure situations (hot oil at idle?).
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Old 09-27-2005, 05:35 AM
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Thanks, that is good info.

CHeers
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Old 09-27-2005, 09:24 AM
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We use dry film lubricant on all bearing, cams and rockers.
The goal is less friction, resulting in lower temperatures and less wear. Results are less wear, lower operating temperatures and one other unintended consequence, higher oil pressures.
Go figure?
Draw backs? none that we see.
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Old 09-30-2005, 03:57 PM
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Reduced friction also means MORE POWER!. Friction, esp ring friction is the main loss in an engine. Anything that can reduce it is welcome.
Old 09-30-2005, 05:23 PM
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They have been around for years (coatings) thet do work and there several types from tafelon to some sort of moly,personaly I never put a eng to gather w.o. it anymore as the extra ins is worth it. I am not talking just P. eng either,but big exp diesel stuff to handgranade Harly eng.
On the diesel its nice to have a heat shield on top and moly sides as it makes it all quieter and the e.g.t can go past the red zone w.o. a melt dwn-same is true for our little P. eng.
Old 10-03-2005, 06:16 PM
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On the diesel its nice to have a heat shield on top and moly sides as it makes it all quieter and the e.g.t can go past the red zone w.o. a melt dwn-same is true for our little P. eng. [/B][/QUOTE]

You mean ceramic coat on the piston tops? How about the combustion chamber and valve faces?? Do you do these too?

Jaime
Old 10-03-2005, 06:59 PM
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