Rebuilding a 962 motor

[VZ935]

I have an extra wiring harness if you need to use one. When PMNA rebuilt my motor standard operating procedure was to put all new parts in the motor... even if the parts were still good.... and to put a new harness on it. It is for an air car so maybe they are different but I would be happy to send it to you if it helps.

[helidoc]

Why is it that despite the fact that they have some nice people working there, PMNA is so user unfriendly. The only thing that seems to get their attention is the dollar. I guess the frustrations I had with them are showing and since I don't own any more Porsches I can voice my thoughts without fear of getting totally cut off.

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally posted by VZ935
I have an extra wiring harness if you need to use one. When PMNA rebuilt my motor standard operating procedure was to put all new parts in the motor... even if the parts were still good.... and to put a new harness on it. It is for an air car so maybe they are different but I would be happy to send it to you if it helps.

Thank you for your generosity but unfortunately they are different. The air-cooled IMSA motors used an earlier version of Motronic (the ecu is similar in size to a 3.2L street unit) and the motor is programmed as one unit (essentially it was an evolution of the 935 motor or simply a hopped up 930 motor depending on your viewpoint) versus the C motors being in essence 2 motors (master & slave) running independently of each other. They had separate eproms in the ecu, which in one of the earlier pictures I took showed the bulkiness of it...

Ralph

[VZ935]

I figured they were different but still thought I would offer just in case.

Well the same person who bought that car (Helidoc's) contacted me about buying mine.... it seems 962's are getting hot. I even had an inquiry from England and was surprised because I would figure the C cars would be the ticket there but the response was that my 962 won a World Endurance Championship race (Sebring 1986) and that is why the guy wanted it.... it is amazing how these people are seeking me out for this 962. They are very cool cars and it is some what surprising that they are cheaper than a 935 right now... personally I don't think that will last much longer.

[Doug E]

Wow, what a great thread ... thanks for all your efforts in continuing the story Ralph!

[YTNUKLR]

that is slick, can't wait to see the finished product

[BReyes]

I had not read this post for a while (BTW bad a** 962).

I had read a prior post about the high price of the 935s and I knew what 962s were going for in Florida, but VZ935s clarification that he doesnt expect it to be like it is always helps understand.

I have to read this thread again. These motors scream. Have you guys seen "In Car 956 with Derek Bell'? video.

[BReyes]

This past weekend at Sebring for HSR the 962s were SCREAMING. Must be very fun ride!

[timc]

Originally posted by Carrera3.5L
VZ,

I just found some images and info on your car from someone's site on the net, don't know how accurate the info actually is. You may or may not have already seen this...

http://www.xs4all.nl/~robdebie/models/962.htm

The only race your chassis won was at Sebring, but other than the (2) 24 hour races that would be the one to win! There were alot of 962/962C's that were built that never tasted success. The March85G-Buick (Holbert had a similar car with Porsche power before the 962) in the hands of JPJ was on pole at 2:11.416 while the Akin car started 4th with a time of 2:13.843. A clean sweep that year, with Busby's 962 & Holbert's 962 finishing 2nd & 3rd. That was an accomplishment in itself as the "privateer" 962 teams had the deck stacked against them versus the "factory" Holbert team in terms of the latest engine updates and support.



Kind of a grainy image, but it's definitely your car...

Ralph

I've got pictures of that Sebring race, and the earlier Daytona race that year, which include many of Aiken's 5 and of "the last 935". I'll have to unpack them go thru and scan. I went to Daytona and Sebring in 85, 86 and 87. It was really special seeing the last of the 935's run in 85.

[VZ935]

Originally posted by Carrera3.5L
VZ,

I just found some images and info on your car from someone's site on the net, don't know how accurate the info actually is. You may or may not have already seen this...

http://www.xs4all.nl/~robdebie/models/962.htm

The only race your chassis won was at Sebring, but other than the (2) 24 hour races that would be the one to win! There were alot of 962/962C's that were built that never tasted success. The March85G-Buick (Holbert had a similar car with Porsche power before the 962) in the hands of JPJ was on pole at 2:11.416 while the Akin car started 4th with a time of 2:13.843. A clean sweep that year, with Busby's 962 & Holbert's 962 finishing 2nd & 3rd. That was an accomplishment in itself as the "privateer" 962 teams had the deck stacked against them versus the "factory" Holbert team in terms of the latest engine updates and support.



Kind of a grainy image, but it's definitely your car...

Ralph

Ralph ,
The easy way to tell my car from the other Coca~Cola 962's is mine has a silver rear wing vs 962-102 that had a red rear wing.. other than that the ccar had a black wing in 1987 when it was co sponsored with Yokohama...like this at Daytona in 1987 ..



Car not only won Sebring it set the record for average MPH and distance covered.... and it did it with only three wheels

[VZ935]

Originally posted by timc
I've got pictures of that Sebring race, and the earlier Daytona race that year, which include many of Aiken's 5 and of "the last 935". I'll have to unpack them go thru and scan. I went to Daytona and Sebring in 85, 86 and 87. It was really special seeing the last of the 935's run in 85.

Would love to see those pics !

[sand_man]

giving this thread a:

Any updates? Did the engine ever make it to the dyno? Any footage and/or sound clips?

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally Posted by sand_man

Any updates? Did the engine ever make it to the dyno? Any footage and/or sound clips?

It's been awhile since I've been on Pelican, hopefully this new format is similar to the old and will be easy to post some pics...if not you guys are SOL...

Sorry for the long delay in posting, the C motor started up and ran for the first time this afternoon. The main reason for the long delay was that the ECU was kaput and had to be sent back to Bosch in Germany, where it has sat for the last 6 months. Wiring up this motor for the dyno has also been a major challenge for Neil, as the antiquated Bosch electronics are not the easiest to deal with. For other 962C customers, Neil uses his own electronics (for more power, drivability and tuning capability) but this customer wants the motor as original as possible for resale purposes.

Neil and I finished up the odds and ends this afternoon, starting with making sure the motor had full throttle and a small adjustment to the cable and locating bracket was made. When the motor was first turned over to generate some oil pressure, we had minor oil weaping from the scavenge pump that was quickly tended to, then a minor fuel leak due to a bad fitting and finally a massive water leak due to a bad sealing o-ring used in one of the wiggins clamps. Fortunately, a speed shop is just a hop, skip and jump away and we were able to source replacement parts. The motor made 90 psi of oil pressure before the plugs were installed and the motor fired right up.

The motor was set to 3,000-3,500 rpm to ensure adequate oiling during this initial run-in process. The oil temps rose quickly and were soon at 200° which is too high for the motor at this point. Luckily, just down the street is another shop that offers the nice Setrab coolers so we found the biggest one we could for -12 fittings and plumbed it in (sticking the cooler in a bucket of ice water). Unfortunately, we had intended to dyno the motor without the water t-stats installed so as to not cause any confusion with the dyno's t-stat in the water tower but we were getting a vast water temp difference from one bank to the other. So, to not risk cracking a cylinder during power runs, the t-stats are going back in tomorrow morning and we will than do the run-in and power runs, both with the inlet restrictors as well as without if we have the time.

Here are some pics:













Note the "trick" chain and straps to support the turbo/wastegate assembly. At Andial, we had fabricated aluminum "tables" that the assembly could rest on for support as the dyno was only used for these motors and so it was fairly easy to take the motors on and off. This dyno is used primarily for V8 powerplants so a little bit of McGyverism was implemented.

Anyone want to venture a guess as to the power output? I will let slip that the motor will not run with high boost pressures as they are not required for this application. The most boost I ever saw in a C motor was 1.8 bar but this motor will run in the 1 to 1.4 max range. Bear in mind the inlet restrictors also when making your guess...

Jeff Alton, if you happen to read this sometime soon please send me an email as I had some computer problems and somehow lost your email address. I have some good news regarding what we discussed about when we were at the pub last week...

Tim (Helidoc), if you are still viewing this I will finish up burning the CD of all the images for you this weekend and get it off to the address that you provided earlier.

Ralph

[VZ935]

At 1.4 I will say 740hp Assuming it has the k36 and not a short track 33 on it.

Yeah , B likes his stuff bone stock . I have had the same problem with Bosch in Germany. It took them 8 months to do a CD box for me. I thank my stars I had two extras.

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally Posted by VZ935

At 1.4 I will say 740hp Assuming it has the k36 and not a short track 33 on it.

Remember, water-cooled 4-valve motor with twin-turbos and not the air-cooled single turbo unit where a K36 may have been fitted. KKK units were never used in the C motors in IMSA that were built by Andial, these turbos here are nicer Garrets. The appropriate KKK units would have been a K27 variation.

The main reason why the switch was made for IMSA racing is that you couldn't get any factory support from KKK. You literally had to buy the preferred application from them (or Porsche Weissach) and were told "good luck" whereas Garret was just up the freeway a bit and they were happy to come down and provide technical help. It made for a much smoother partnership...

Ralph

[helidoc]

Ralph, thanks for the update as I haven't heard anything for many months and now I know why. I also wonder what was wrong with the ecu and if it had been something that exsisted when I was driving the car. Hopefully it just needed a new battery. I think all the viewers of this forum can appreciate how much effort goes into keeping these older high tech cars (for the era) going. Deep pockets and much patience are required. If you don't have my address PM me and I will appreciate getting the cd.

[VZ935]

Originally Posted by Carrera3.5L

Remember, water-cooled 4-valve motor with twin-turbos and not the air-cooled single turbo unit

Yep.. I have been looking at early IMSA air cars for too long and spaced.... how about 840 @ 1.4 bar

[Carrera3.5L]

Well, the run-in and a few power runs are finally over so the motor will be taken off on Monday for the after-dyno service. Neil will just have to change one of the turbo scavenge pump gaskets as it had a slight weep but other than that the motor is dry. The water pumps are notorius for leaking but they are bone dry which is a good sign.

The motor in this configuration made 679 SAE horsepower at 7,900 rpm at 1.2 bar without restrictors. These particular Garret turbos are too small for huge horsepower numbers (these were used for a temporary street circuits where top-end horsepower is irrelevant) as the motor was gasping for air (even with the restrictors removed) over 5,000 rpm and one can say the motor pretty much outruns these turbos. Torque was 518 ft/lbs at 6,100 rpm so it gives one an idea as to how narrow a powerband these motors have. There was also no reason to raise the boost any more than 1.2 bar as the power levels are plenty for the intended use of the car and there was no reason to try and hurt the motor by raising the boost to 1.4 or above. More concern was paid to what the horsepower/torque numbers were at 5,000 rpm before the turbo configuration comes into play and they are consistent with the Andial dyno plot from 1991.

Also bear in mind that the numbers given above are SAE, not in Nm and PS. I think the Andial dyno info from 1991 for engine AN253 was posted earlier in this thread and those numbers are in Nm for torque and PS for horsepower. I believe the conversion from SAE to PS is 1.013 and ft/lbs to Nm is 1.356 so you can calculate the new numbers in metric. The turbos, wastegates, fuel octane and inlet system was also different than what was used in 1991 so you really can't compare the absolute numbers too much.

Here are some more pics:





















That's about it for pics, I asked another Pelican (Chris or 84Porsche) if he wanted to come watch and maybe shoot some video and soundclips for you guys and he welcomed the opportunity. Hopefully he got some good video and sound clips. He is going to edit it and put it on YouTube in the near future. I'm sure he'll come on here and notify you guys when he has a link up.

Ralph

[84porsche]

Originally Posted by Carrera3.5L

That's about it for pics, I asked another Pelican (Chris or 84Porsche) if he wanted to come watch and maybe shoot some video and soundclips for you guys and he welcomed the opportunity. Hopefully he got some good video and sound clips. He is going to edit it and put it on YouTube in the near future. I'm sure he'll come on here and notify you guys when he has a link up.

Ralph

Ralph,

Thanks again, that was an awesome experience. The uploaded quality is a little less than I had hoped for but I can mail you a DVD if you would like.

Chris

[VZ935]

Originally Posted by Carrera3.5L

The motor in this configuration made 679 SAE horsepower at 7,900 rpm at 1.2 bar without restrictors. These particular Garret turbos are too small for huge horsepower numbers
Ralph

Small turbos or not those are some pretty nice numbers Thanks for the pics and video !