91 3.3 Turbo Saga

Infrared Camera · 08:41 AM

**EDIT**
Thank you guys for all the advice. This board is the greatest. I have wasted many hours here now (in the best possible way)! I have renamed this post "Project Black B@stard". Thanks to all you sum b!tches and your hopped up go-carts I now have the jones again. I have decided to go with the project (most likely supertec). I blame you all collectively. Each and every one of you who posted here will probably get a call from my wife so be nice!

Check out my post below for details and pictures of Project Black B@stard.
**EDIT**

After a 78 and an 83 I finally managed to find a Turbo! Like most people I have always wanted the porsche that was on the poster when I was a kid. I ended up with what I thought was a great deal on a 91 3.3 Turbo. The trouble started when I could not get the car to pass smog. I took the car to a respectable Porsche mechanic and he informed me that the car was running like CaCa (apparently this is an industry term). It sounded like a 69 Camaro with a hot cam! He said he could tune it up so that I would barely know it was running. He tried and tried but couldn't get it right. There was a miss. We took a look at the fuel system, spark, wires and ignition. Nothing. Finally, he got down to the glory hole (cylinder 1) and did a leak down. We had a problem. The compression was wasted and he seemed to think it was a valve issue. As a last resort before tearing it apart we did a valve adjustment. The car still was not right. The very last attempt was to put some Techron in and drive it in the hopes of blowing out any carbon deposit that could be keeping the valve open. NO DICE. My temporary operating permit ran out and so the car has been parked for 2 months while I addressed more pressing matters. Now I just started her up to keep the battery going and it looked like a fog machine in a night club. Tons of white smoke billowed forth. I drove it lightly around the neighborhood and the smoke diminished somewhat. I decided to just go ahead and do the motor. Now for the quesitons:

1. I need a recomendation on reasonable 911 motor rebuilders. I called Motormeister and they don't work on Turbos so F them. I called Supertec and they sounded good on the rebuild and offered some performance mods (3.4 and cams). I am in Vegas but I am willing to travel to SoCal. Supertec said you guys have a recomended Motor Shops section on here but I can't find it. Any referals would be appreciated.

2. My 3.3 has about 80,000 on it. Is this normal for problems to occur in a turbo? Should I do the overhaul or just have someone fix what is actually wrong (valve, cylinder, piston) in hole 1?

3. As long as the engine is out of the car are there any performance mods I should look at? Any that I should avoid? I am looking for a daily driver with no track usage but everyone could use a little boost.

4. I have also discovered that I am missing the CAT. Anyone have a CAT for 91 Turbo (3.3)? I need an OEM original CAT. I have already gone down the aftermarket road and there is no way I am putting on of those Frankenstein monster pieces of CaCa (again an industry term) in my car. Platinum or no platinum I still dont want to pay $2k to the dealer for a new water maker!

5. Finally, anyone want to trade a 91 turbo for a 96-97 twin? If so please forget everything you just read and contact me!

I look forward to your replies. The weather is cooling off here and I am itching for a ride.

PS: I work in the night vision / thermal imaging field. I am currently working on a drivers thermal imaging package that will be mounted in 911 side mirrors to put night vision into 911's just like the Cadillac and BMW. Any interest out there?

BMW Night Vision
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000193050950/#c381771
Cadillac Night Vision
http://autoweb.drive.com.au/cms/A_50653/newsarticle.html

KobaltBlau · 09-12-2005, 01:15 PM

If I were in your position I would go with supertec. stay the heck away from motormeister, we have seen many bad rebuilds from them here. supertec's engines look awesome and their customers are happy.

that engine is very solid if not abused. my guess is the piston damage is from detonation, and that someone had the boost cranked up way too high. that can kill any engine.

If I were you I would do a stock rebuild with "SC" or "964" cams or similar. Henry at Supertec can recommend a cam upgrade. If you need new pistons and cylinders, maybe go a little bigger. The car will be very fast when rebuilt and expensive to rebuild through anyone reputable, so I wouldn't modify it too much to keep the $ down, you'll still be satisfied with the performance.

cnavarro · 09-12-2005, 02:34 PM

Another great option other than Henry over at Supertec would be Chris Carroll of Turbokraft out of Pheonix, AZ.

vichang4 · 09-12-2005, 04:43 PM

Infrared Camera,
I have a catalytic converter and muffler off of a 1987 911 turbo. The cat and muffler were removed at 32,000 miles and have been stored in my attic for 10 years. Excellent shape, $500 OBO

vichang4@cox.net

I would also throw my vote to Henry @ supertec.

WydRyd · 04:17 AM

OUCH

Sounds like a new P&C(s) is in order. Go with stock, or perhaps go to a slightly bigger 3.4L or 3.5L, 7.5:1 kit. EBS Racing sell these kits, with JE Pistons (any compression ratio you like). If only one P&C is shot, you might be able to find a good used single set from the parts section of this WEB site or Rennlist.com. I'm pretty sure I saw a good single P&C set for sale on Rennlist today for ~$275. It'll keep the cost down!

Here's the link for that P&C&Head on Rennlist:

http://mall.rennlist.com/scripts/featured/ads.cgi?db=parts&website=&session_key=&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=long&db_id=7481&query=retrieval

Whilst you're at it, have the cylinders and heads machined for Nerosist/Flamed rings, which will provide much better cylinder/head sealing at higher boost levels

Contact Todd Knighton of Protomotive for doing this mod. They do this all the time and it can seal in boost levels in excess of 1.4bar!!!

For extra safety margin, have the heads twin plugged, source a 964/993 twin distrubutor and run a pair of Crane HI-6 Ignition Systems

Scrap all the CIS crap and fit a pre-89 Carrera EFI manifold, with an aftermarket engine managmenet system, or pre-89 Motronics ECU with the pressure sensing mod. Again, contact Protomotive for this mod. They do it all the time

There's an '84-'89 Carrera Intake Manifold on EBay (Item # 7997746414). Have your heads matched ported to this kind of intake for big HP potential. EFI is the way to go

Here's a Motronics ECU for sale on EBay (Item # 8000029680). Protomotive can install this on your engine and map a new CHIP specifically for your engine on an engine dyno

Fit an updated Turbocharger with aftermarket headers/muffler (if your car hasn't already received these upgrades). I have a K27HF for sale right now at $1k with only 7k miles on it

You could probably retain the C2Turbo Intercooler as this is a very good and efficient unit, but the general consensus amongst big HP-Junkies is to have a custom full-length intercooler made.

As for CAMs, fit GT2-EVO CAMs and ARP Racing head studs/rod bolts. Go with Titanium retainers and racing valve springs.

Build it for strength now, so you won't have any problems later on.

Good luck!!!

P.S: I had the same problem with my car a while back. Turned out to be detonation damage in cylinder # 3 (BIG slap on the knuckles for playing with the boost controller too much). I had a cracked piston ring land. Oil was getting pumped past the rings, into the exhaust, through the turbo, intercooler, intake and everywhere. It was a mess

Infrared Camera · 09-13-2005, 07:03 AM

vichang4 are you sure the 87 turbo cat will fit the 91 turbo? Can anyone confirm this? The advice so far is great! Thank you all. I have ruled out MotorMuncher for sure (especially since they don't do turbos). I liked Henry at Supertec. I know they sell some parts through Pelican so it would be nice to get some feedback from a customer that has used them before (rather than Pelican). They quoted me about $12K for a full stock reduild/overhaul does this sound about right?

sammyg2 · 09-13-2005, 08:27 AM

Where do you live?
There are several good rebuilders out there depending on your location, but from what I've heard if you live anywhere remotely close to southern California you can't go wrong with supertec.

KobaltBlau · 09-13-2005, 08:46 AM

A couple of threads with previous feedback:

supertec engine
Supertec opinions?

consensus: henry can be rough on the phone, but time is money and the engines are very good.

I personally would do only mild modifications for investment and to keep the car balanced, and to keep the costs down, but do what makes you happy. $12k sounds about right for a turbo.

cnavarro · 09-13-2005, 08:50 AM

As with any engine builder who is hard to get on the phone, that's a good thing in my book. It means they are focused and working on your engine. A plus in my book! I know many like Henry whose attention to detail and quality of service that is second to none who are hard to get on the phone.

Infrared Camera · 09-13-2005, 12:45 PM

I live in Vegas so southern cal is not a problem. If you now of a good 911 shop in Las Vegas that would be great but I wont hold my breath.

Does anyone have any idea if the CAT from vichang4's 87 turbo will work in my '91 3.3 turbo? Any one have any feedback on the drivers night vision device? Any one want to take me up on the '97 twin trade? I am frankly surprised that no one is beating down my door!

strokher racing · 09-13-2005, 08:01 PM

Shoot Stephen an email at Imagine Auto. See what he says and go from there. Porschephd@imagineauto.com tell him I sent you and you want to do the same thing to your car as mine

Eric Hood

WydRyd · 09-13-2005, 08:31 PM

How's ur car going Eric? On the road yet?

strokher racing · 09-13-2005, 08:35 PM

Nah my Porsche is not quite finished...been waiting on an intercooler and intake. Other than that it is finished. My new cobra will be finished hopefully by next weekend. Getting the slicks ready for its first outing at the track

Eric Hood

WydRyd · 09-13-2005, 09:18 PM

Nice!

Infrared Camera · 10:24 AM

I am doing the full rebuild (Supertec I think). Right now I am thinking
Engine
3.3 - 3.4
P&C's (Nickies? LN Engineering makes a good case online for their aluminum cylinders. Any suggestions?)
cams
clutch (stock is shot)
Flywheel? (I was told by my mechanic that the 3.3 Turbo flywheel is already light enough. Is this true or could I benefit from an aftermarket one)?
Turbo (if mine is questionable).
I will most likely depend on Henry @ Supertec for advice on these parts but I am interested in what you guys have to recomend for a daily driver no track car that can still put a smile on my face.

Body
Fix key mark down right side. Anyone know of a good shop near Supertec that can remove or repaint this scratch (see pic)?
Full blown detail job

Wheels
Stock wheels painted or powdered black of course.

Tires
?

Suspension mods
none but open to suggestions

Here are some pics. I will keep this thread alive with detailed progress of the transformation from sick c2 Turbo into the Black B@stard.

The oil leaks. The river on the left happened after my brief drive around the neighborhood. You think it has something to do with the valve adjustment they just did?

Some ahole keyed the car along the whole right side! I know it needs a wash leave me alone. Think it can be fixed?

The stock wheels need to be refinished. I am going black. Yes that is a cobweb on the front bumper. Project car.

As soon as I charge the battery I will start it up and get you guys a good shot of the smoke show and some engine pics for reference.

wolf · 09-14-2005, 11:08 AM

Good luck with your project. Why is there a 3.3 in this 965?

KobaltBlau · 09-14-2005, 11:11 AM

because it's stock early 965: early 965 had 3.3, later only 3.6. more 3.3 965 were made than 3.6

WydRyd · 09-14-2005, 05:57 PM

Nice 965

Yup, the Turbo 3.6 is a pretty rare animal indeed!

InfraredCamera, I have a low mileage K27 High Flow S for sale @ USD$1k

Infrared Camera · 09-16-2005, 07:39 AM

The deed is done. I have scheduled a pickup to take the Black B@stard to Henry at Supertec. Henry recomended Safeway Auto Transportation. I called them up and spoke with Laura who was very nice. They had a truck passing through here and quoted me a rate of $250 from Las Vegas to Fallbrook, CA. It's going on an open carrier but I still think thats a great price. What do you guys think?

I also called FedEx Custom Critical Auto transport and they wanted $850 for a covered and $500 for open trailer. Additionally, they would not give me a date for pickup saying it could be today or two weeks but my car must be ready and waiting. You can have them gaurantee a pickup date but FedEx told me that service would be around $500 additional. I think I made the right choice.

More pics are coming. I plan to do an image diary of this whole process.

Infrared Camera · 09-16-2005, 11:53 AM

First,
Thanks vichang4 for the offer on the '87 CAT. I posted in classifieds and Sam is selling me a CAT from a 91 turbo 3.3 with a reported 10k on it.

Second,
Now that I have arranged to do the motor with Henry I am starting to dream and covet. Realistically, I think I need to do just enough to the motor to break the 400HP mark (91 3.3 Turbo 320HP) and still keep reliability and longevity. Any suggestions? I would love to hear what you guys would suggest.

Third,
What is the deal with Twin Plugs? I understand 2 per cylinder but there is a lot of conflicting info on what I gain and what it costs. Do you guys think it is worthwhile to twin plug my '91 3.3 turbo? Is it worth the money? What is the best method for this motor? Do I see HP gains? Reliability gain? Is it protection against piston meltdown (detonation)? Please offer guidance. It seems like a very expensive and involved modification so I want to know all I can beforehand. It seems that this one mod could put me over budget very easily and it would be nice if the money were best spent elsewhere on the car.