keeping this info

Has anyone ever used Three bond 1207 in place of 1194?

So, what is the difference between the Threebond 1211 and other silicone sealers, such as the various flavors of Permatex? I use Permatex Ultra Gray on my Honda valve cover, and it seems to work great in conjunction with that rubber gasket. It's supposedly the same sealer that Honda sells for this purpose.

Permatex requires two hours of something like 80% of torque to "shape" gasket formation, then you torque final 100% torque after two hours to properly use their product. Virtually no one does it correctly creating improper sealing.

The other thing is their product is just too thick which is opposite of the sealants required for the 911 engine.

Big thanks to everyone who contributed to the thread. Helps answer a lot of questions. For reference on the case I recently did for my '79, I did the left half.

>1194 on the case perimeter
>574 on the bearing saddles
>Dow 112 paste on the #8 o-ring, dry bore
>Dow 112 paste on the green thru bolt o-rings, installed next day one at a time.
>Crank seals both installed "dry"- a little bit of spit on them to ease going in the bore

I like the 1194. Goes on well and smushes out oh-so slightly. Nice.

My work was on an engine that was assaulted with 574. I hate the stuff for clean-up. It was on the case halves (probably both halves), on the cylinder base gaskets (what a mess), on cam towers to heads (probably both mating surfaces as well), on breather cover gasket, on cam end gaskets, on intermediate shaft cover, on oil cooler seals. Like I said, what a mess.

I find it surprising in the thread that a lot of people questioned the benefit of the 574 on the main saddles. The evidence is pretty obvious when you look at the mating surfaces of the saddles. That "hatched" grayish-black finish you see on them is not from machine tooling marks. That surface is fretting caused by the two surfaces rubbing back and forth against each other oh-so slightly.

The 574 helps prevent that. Next best solution is shuffle pins but who needs that on a stock rebuild or mildly warmed over engine?

Question about machine finish...

If you have your case split line machined for the sake of reclaiming the mains to standard line bore, what is the spec for the surface finish on the case perimeter and bearing saddles? Wondering if the surface finish spec is the same or different. Thanks.

This thread was invaluable to me when I did my motor. However, I didn't question the benefit of 574 on the saddles, I applied a light coat. Sheer strength is very high, so should really limit lateral movement of the saddles.

+1 for another useful thread.

I *thought* I was done with buying all the sealants and potions I need to re-build the bunch of cleaned up parts...but then stumbled across this thread and decided to increase the collection with some Three Bond.

Some info for the collective; I spoke with a guy called Jim at Three Bond UK a couple of times today, and the products mentioned in the thread have been superseded a little:

1104 -> 1194 (which has been documented) but is now 1184

1211 is superseded by 1215

By phoning around a couple of Three Bond distributors over here, I have managed to find a tube of both 1194 and 1211 - probably some of the last remaining ones - as I'm now absolutely paranoid about going "off-piste" from Henry's list :D

BTW - another thumbs-up and thanks to Henry for his continued input ;)

I haven't got the Dow Corning 55 or 111 for the case through bolt o-rings; I ordered this from RS Components some weeks ago, before reading about Dow products:

Silicone Grease

Reckon this will be ok?

Cheers guys
Spencer.

Yes, any silicon grease is fine.

-Andy

Good man, cheers Andy

Hylomar is still working just fine on mine. Just wonder how many engines out there have nice little 574 spacers on the bearing caps from not getting that engine assembled and torqued in under 20 minutes. They do rev nicer that way with all the reduced bearing friction.

Good thread here for info... bumping it up as I'm going through a top-end rebuild and sealant shopping.

Best lube I have found for anything rubber was called Archer Professional Gel Lube with teflon. It was from radio shack. I ran out and couldn't find it anyplace then I ran across it at Harbor Freight. It is now called Super Lube Professional gel lube with teflon.
I used it on all the o-rings during assembly. Recently took a case back apart and every one of the through bolt orings were in one piece. Works very nice on the oil return tubes and is the greatest thing ever for getting the rear spring plates to go into the torsion tube. You can literally just push them in. The stuff kind of drys up and the rubber takes a set just like it should.

That's what I'm afraid of. But then, didn't Porsche use something like 574 on the 964 and 993 engines?

Really? 20 minutes to marry the case halves together is too short? Are you guys Union workers or what? :)
With the proper prep work, 20 minutes is PLENTY of time. Rehearse the routine, make sure everything is organized, within arm's reach and you'll do fine.

No kidding-that is exactly what I did. It went together quickly and efficiently.

Yes, I do that with the through bolts. For 993 RS and GT3 engines one has to install the lower bolts with the central O ring and leave them in place with the seal ring installed to begin with. I think this minimizes spinning of the O rings and potential damage. I also use the factory tools to pass the seals over the thread and to tap them in place.

Porsche recommends and sells Dreibond 1209 (3 bond) part number 000.043.203.73 now as case sealant, I didn't see that mentioned here, has anyone used this?

Hey Ciupcar, Interested in this response as well. From what I understand 1209 is a clear sealant rather than the red/orange etc of the others. Being clear, is it harder to see if you have a good coating on the mating surfaces?

I am about to start putting my engine together soon and have been reading this thread with great interest.

993 Specific question, are the techniques listed here (Thanks everyone) suitable for all 911 engines including 993's? I saw a list on the previous page from Henry that listed all the sealants and all the sealing surfaces (inc Cam towers, chain housings etc) are these also relevant to a 993 build.

Thanks again everyone, fantastic thread.

1209 is clear and one can see the ooze from the joints just fine.

993 sealant strategy is same as earlier cars except the joints where the 993 uses rubber seals at the camshaft and chain housing covers.

Here, I am not sure if it is best to use Dow 111 only or to use some kind of sealant where the gaskets plug into the covers - not where the gaskets meet their opposite mating surface.

The magnesium chain housings need to be free of corrosion and flat, if not a surface grind using emery on glass seems to work fine. Be careful here not to remove any more than necessary particularly where cover goes to crankcase.

The problem I have with Three Bond 1200 products as a case sealant is that they are Silicone based sealants and as such produce a flexible bead on the inside of the case.
If/when that bead encounters engine vibration and/or fluid dynamics of whirling engine oil the bead breaks loose and ends up as worms in the oil supply blocking oil passages like oil squirters, cam pray bar and bearing supply holes.
The 1100 products are synthetic rubber based sealants that have less of a propensity for beading and the beads seem the resist break away better.

Adding this here for magnesium case owners - upon removing my head studs that were installed by a builder in Massachusetts in 1991, I noted a bead of silicon sealant around the outside of each hole at the top. Given the talk of head studs pulling on the magnesium case, I expect this was applied to the top 3-4 threads (toward the middle, not the tip) of the stud where it threads into the case in order to prevent moisture from entering and subsequent corrosion to the loaded area/case threads. I've fitted my new headstuds using permatex ultra black in the same manner...makes sense to me.

The proper method for installing head studs is to treat them with a small amount of low/medium hold thread locker. Silicone on head studs is a silly application regardless of the case material.

For this to happen, the oil has to make its way through the oil filter or filters in the later air cooled cars. It is amazing the amount of lint, Dow 111 and sealant junk in the filter at the first and second oil change as the stuff floats free.

One has to wonder why Porsche uses the 1209 in the GT3 catalog and not Loctite as previously. They do specify a 1.5 mm bead and this provides a very small bead at the joint compression line. And the GT3 has only one oil filter which is after the scavenge pump.

Porsche filters generally have a high pressure by pass for cold oil (high viscosity ) situations and it is at these times that we see the potential for silicone worms.
I can't speak intelligently about the GT3 oil system but in the early engines we used to see a tremendous number of engine failures do the silicone worming (bright orange plugs in bearing and squirters).

Ahem, you treat the hole with thread locker, not the stud otherwise you will have air lock issues. You need to consider wet climates outside of your southern Californian home... it makes perfect sense to seal the top of the thread where it enters the case. Magnesium is quite susceptible to corrosion.

Silicon has acetic acid in it, so I think not the best choice for a Mag case in any situation.

Not good for sure.

I hope you're joking... but I can't tell on the internet.

http://www.permatex.com/component/documents/?view=msds&format=raw&filename=22072.pdf&language= 01_USA-English

You wash the stuff off with soap and water. It's basically inert... it's used on magnesium cases around the world.

Try the opposite view. I doubt you got a water-tight seal. Any moisture going in is going to have a tough time getting out.

Afraid that would be quite difficult with WD40, Carb clean and ARP Moly prep.

I'm not talking about that stuff, some silastic silicon compounds I have seen used emit acetic acid vapor on curing and I am not sure how much residual acidity would be left in the thread of the stud joint using it, and not something I would want to think about if the threaded material were magnesium and stressed like a head stud is.

I think if one follows Henry's advice and the Loctite floats to the top of the stud's thread, no significant water is going to get in there, the stud will be tight and Yoda will be happy.

Most silicone sealants are indeed acid curing. The acetic acid cure is that distinct smell most silicones have. But, there are non-acid curing silicones. Permatex ultra black is one of them.

The non-acid curing thing is often mentioned by three piece wheel manufacturers. I guess they don't like the acid on the 6061 aluminum wheel shells?

Thanks Bob.... I had to replace one of my chain housings there were small pin holes from corrosion.

Great info.

Great info! But how come there's no mention anywhere of any Permatex products? As best as I've been able to determine, none of the auto shops (O'Reilly, Autozone, Pepboys) here in the bay area carry any Threebond products (looking for some 1194 - looks like I've got to go to Amazon.com). Are Permatex products just not that good or what?

Yamabond or Hondabond are almost the same as 1194; you can get them down at the motorcycle dealers.

Thanks lindy,
Couple more questions:
1) Do you have to put Yamabond on both surfaces? (vs just 1 with 574)
2) I read that Yamabond starts to develop a skin in about 20 minutes, so you have to work quickly with it also. Is that correct?
3) If Loctite 574 is so hard to remove, are parts also a lot more difficult to separate once you've used it? (Murphy's law runs my life - I just know I'm going to forget something, or whatever, and I'm going to have to pull this or that back apart and redo it...)

Shelf Life?
 

I have read all 14 pages! phew some read.

I have a few engines to build over the next year or two, they are a mixture of aircooled Volkswagen and Porsche.

I have two questions :

1) I plan on using the 4 main sealants, will these be ok on both aluminum and magnesium cases? as I have a mixture to build (911 mag and ali, 356 mag, vw type 1 mag, vw type 4 ali)

2) ive read that the 1184 superseedes the 1194 which superseeded the 1104, and the 1215 for the 1211.

Im of course worried about going off piste from the list, which is probally not justified, but im sure you understand me/why!

So i'm asking should I just go for the 11844 and the 1215 or buy 1104 (or 11940 and the 1211 which are both available on ebay...my worry is shelf life of the 1104 and the 1211 which are still available...

thanks in advance

Make it easy on yourself and go to your local Honda motorcycle dealer and buy a 3.5 oz. tube of Hondabond 4. It's around $6 or $7. Yamaha dealers have Yamabond 4 and it's the same stuff. Ever notice how you don't see Honda and Yamaha motorcycles leaking oil?
These are both the latest rebranded Threebond 4 digit whatever. It's grey and cleans up easy with laquer thinner on a rag.
Instructions are on the tube.

I used it on the cam tower to head surfaces and chain case to case surfaces with no paper gaskets and there are no oil leaks anywhere. I spread a thin coat evenly on both surfaces with a short stiff bristle throw away brush and then put the parts together. It dries relatively slowly so you don't have to worry about rushing quickly while carefully spreading it on the cam tower to cylinder head surfaces.

There is a high temp version of the Hondabond 4 that cost more but you don't need it.
Hope that helps and it looks like this...
Pro Honda Hondabond 4 Liquid Gasket - Chaparral Motorsports

Update on the case through bolt ring grease for the brain trust:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/452985-your-opinion-wanted-green-bolt-through-viton-o-rings-rtv.html

Dow Corning reduces tensile strength of Viton by half; Dupont Krytox doesn't. Choose wisely.