964 3.6 rebuild

[kirkf]

I had to work most of today, but I managed to check the deck height on cylinders 1 & 4 tonight.

I temporarily installed pistons 1 & 4 and their cylinders. Then I placed some 3mm solder on the top of each piston dome and bolted the heads on at 23 ft/lbs.
I rotated the engine to crush the solder, and checked the clearance using a caliper.

The deck height appears to be 1.45mm - 1.55mm

[ANTONIO]

I think you have the cyls. upside down, cheers, Ant.

[kirkf]

Funny but true. I shouldn't work on things when its late!
Lucky I was just checking deck height and not installing them or I would be awfully upset today!

Cheers,
Kirk

[kirkf]

Ok I had to redo the deck height because I wasn't happy with the measurements I did. So I went back and did them over:
(The edge of the cylinder has the tightest tolerance, but the solder tends to get a lip where it crushes into the gap along the cylinder wall)

Lesson: Don't work on your engine when you are over tired. Too many mistakes get made.

I temporarily installed pistons 1 & 4 and their cylinders. Then I placed some 3mm solder on the top of each piston dome in line with the crank shaft and bolted the heads on at 23 ft/lbs.
I rotated the engine to crush the solder, and checked the width of the crushed solder using a caliper. This measures the clearance between the piston and the head. (Deck Height -sorta)

The edge of the piston has the tightest clearance
The deck height measured is .90mm to 1.03mm

I consulted with Steve Weiner of Rennsport systems. (Nice guy and very helpful)

Standard deck height on these (motors) is .040 or 1.0mm. More deck promotes detonation and less permits piston-to-head contact. My tolerance is .038.

So my deck height is in the correct range.
Kirk

[CBRacerX]

Thanks Kirk - that was a helpful tip on the location to measure.

[ischmitz]

Nice work. Just one question: Why did you replace the RS flywheel with a stock wheel? Were you unhappy with the lighter wheel?

Cheers,
Ingo

[kirkf]

One of the reasons I dropped the engine was because of clutch problems. (Mostly due to oil leaking on the flywheel it would seem)

I decided to go back to the dual mass flywheel because I found the stalling issues with the LWF to be irritating. Particularly with the A/C on. I bought my car with the LWF so i'll have to see if like having the heavier dmf or not. If I decide I don't like it I will put the RS setup back in.

Kirk

[herman maire]

Originally posted by kirkf
One of the reasons I dropped the engine was because of clutch problems. (Mostly due to oil leaking on the flywheel it would seem)

I decided to go back to the dual mass flywheel because I found the stalling issues with the LWF to be irritating. Particularly with the A/C on. I bought my car with the LWF so i'll have to see if like having the heavier dmf or not. If I decide I don't like it I will put the RS setup back in.

Kirk

All you need is a computer chip to correct the idle and idle drop , and you should be good to go. I would'nt put that heavy nasty flywheel in .

It will dull enging responce and slow your shifts also...Heavy=no no.

Great solder idea. So all you have to do is check 2 cylinders?
What would you do if 1 was no in spec? Just wondering.

[kirkf]

I had to work this weekend, but I made a little engine progress. I installed the pistions & cylinders.

I starting at piston #1 and worked around the engine clockwise 1-2-3-6-5-4

STEPS:
-Cover openings around the piston you are not working on with cellophane, place a clean lint free cloth around the rod you will be working on. (Less chance of dropping the circlip into the engine)

-Setup rings on piston. With intake valve at Noon, put first ring at 9 Oclock, 2nd ring at 3 Oclock, oil ring at 12 Oclock and put piston into cylinder from bottom.

-Put Threebond 1211 around perimeter of cylinder and place green viton O-ring in place.

-Put wrist pin in place, about 2 mm past inside endge of piston

-Wipe down case spigot with alcohol, and put rebuild lube on small end of rod
bushing.

-Put piston/cylinder in place and tap wrist pin into position

-Put circlip into position with opening at about 11 Oclock, place small screwdriver into 3Oclock gap, lever the circlip inwards and press into place with thumb.

-Gently tap/push cylinder down and hold in place with tool.

Kirk

[kirkf]

Herman,

Even with a chip to correct the problem, my engine still has stalling issues. Alot of people are taking out LWFs for this reason. The 964s just arent happy with a 12lb flywheel. Either you tolerate the stalling and oscillating idle, or you give up and go back to the DMF.


Kirk

[CBRacerX]

Krik - looks like you installed the pistons "dry" - did you lube the cylinder at all?

Good progress!

[Jeff Alton]

I too had a LWF in a 964 with a chip that was supposed to correct the stalling. It would stall every once in a while, I lived with it, but I can see how it can frustrate folks.

Kirk, I am picking up the gauge at Greyhound tomorrow, check you paypal account then for the deposit!

Looks like you are doing some very nice work on your motor. Great thread and pics as well, it is opening up some good discussion.

Cheers

[ischmitz]

What you need is a chip and a slight adjustment of the AFM air bypass screw. Together this will take care of the stalling for good given that you idle control valve is operting properly and you have no other leaks in the intake.

Ingo

[kirkf]

Chris,

The pistons were lubed up with oil, You just can't see it in the pictures. (maybe I should have added that to the steps.)

Ingo,
I have read about adjusting the afm screw, also people have mentioned doing an idle adapt with a hammer to help the problem. There was alot of discussion about this on Rennlist, but as far as I could tell nobody was getting consistent results from any of the fixes. I was having all the other classic 964 clutch problems, low pedal, poor disengagement, heavy pedal, and on top of that stalling when the a/c was on.
So when I went in to investigate where the problems were coming from my solution was to bring the car back to the stock setup.
Once the engine is in good condition I might revisit installing the LWF setup. (Depending on whether I hate the DMF or not). I don't think it works well to try and diagnose an issue like the LWF stalling problem, when you have a dozen other mechanical issues adding to the mix.
The clutch replacement has already been a bit of a nightmare for me, because it took me a while to figure out why someone would replace the 1989 12lb flywheel with a RS 12lb flywheel. Long story short: The transmission was replaced in 1991 with a late style DMF transmission. Of course I found that out after I had ordered all the '89 parts...)

Jeff,
Thanx again for the loan of the stretch gauge! Hopefully this rebuild runs as well as it seems to be going together.

Kirk

[ekessel]

Kirk,
I've had great luck with the Andial added weight to the LWF. No stalling, even with the AC on....... just a thought.......

-Eric
90 C2

[kirkf]

What does andial do? Make their own flywheel or add weight to an rs flywheel somehow?

Kirk

[CBRacerX]

I think the weight that Andial adds is just in the price tag. Sorry, could not resist.

To be constructive, I have a 964 based bottom end with the RSR flywheel and have had zero stalling issues. However, I am running 993 v-ram intake and electronics.

[ekessel]

I sent Andial the LWF, they added a stainless "weight" ring to the back of the flywheel, and since then the car doesn't stall. When I bought the car, it had the LWF, and a "custom" chip, and I considered it undriveable (part of the purchase price included a "deduction" for the stalling problem)

I think it was $400 or so about 2-3 years ago.

[kirkf]

I didn't get much done this weekend. I'm still waiting for parts to come back from powder coating.

So I dissassembled the distributor, repacked the bearings and replaced the drive belt, and I cleaned out the oil sludge from the engine compartment and passenger side rear wheel well.
(Found another oil line I need to replace as well. Ugh.)

Kirk

[kirkf]

Amazing how unhappy I was after spending 6 hours with varsol wiping out oil sludge.

Kirk