Cam Tower - Oil Leak

[Determined]

I believe someone already mentioned it but proper torque sequence is important and I think that you only need to apply sealant to one side then seal. Too much sealant does not guarantee a better seal, only my thoughts. Good luck.

Alex

[Walt Fricke]

Mitch

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with the way you applied the sealant (Scott is right about how it works, but if you used the right stuff it doesn't matter that you had that mixed up). The factory method is to apply a little to the cam carrier (nice flat surface) and roll it on evenly with a little paint roller (same advice they give for the case half seal). This leaves a very thin coating, which the factory thought was good enough.

I squeeze a narrow bead on (and put nothing at all on in the middle part between the intake side and exhaust side, since there is no oil there to be contained), and let the joining of the parts and torquing squeeze it out both sides, which it does nicely (as one can tell when next the parts are taken apart).

While you may have applied more than most of us apply, and put it on the heads and not the carrier, and used your finger instead of the sealant tube tip only, I don't see anything obviously out of whack in that picture, nor any reason your non-standard procedure shouldn't give a good result.

The factory manual gives no sequence for tightening the many cam carrier 8mm nuts. Surprised me, a former VW and flathead Ford guy used to having the manual opened on the bench when doing this kind of thing to follow the order specified. So I have just kind of done a loose sort of criss cross in two or three torque stages (snug plus by feel, then final torque with the wrench) to try to draw things down fairly evenly. And Wayne gives a nice numbered sequence in his book, which a guy less hard headed than me should probably follow, but which I can't see as super critical. So I am dubious that your leak is due to goofing any of this up. Besides, if you warped anything you'd have felt it when you put the cam in.

And I bet you didn't go off to see a movie after applying the sealant and loosely installing the carrier, and then torqued it much later. Right? You got right on it, despite thinking the sealant remained pliable?

So I don't have any suggestions (I second the view that external goop is unlikely to do any good, tempting as it may seem. But go for it.).

It might help other's imaginations if you could point to where these leaks seem to be coming from, and why you think point or points X, Y, and Z are the places? Or did I miss that?

And what nuts on the transmission side aroused your suspicions? I'm trying to think what has a crush washer other than the valve covers and could also leak?

But I want you on my race team, so you can fix a bent valve or two for me at the track if need be. I sure am wedded to my engine stand for a job as big as you undertook.

Walt Fricke
No Headaches Racing (no brains, no headaches)

[GotaT]

"I squeeze a narrow bead on (and put nothing at all on in the middle part between the intake side and exhaust side, since there is no oil there to be contained), and let the joining of the parts and torquing squeeze it out both sides, which it does nicely (as one can tell when next the parts are taken apart). "

- When you squeeze this bead do you Continue the bead to Make a Circle around each Intake/Exhaust Valve?... the way you describe it sounds like you only make a u-shape w/ the sealant..


"And what nuts on the transmission side aroused your suspicions? I'm trying to think what has a crush washer other than the valve covers and could also leak?"

- If you reach behind the Upper valve covers Nearest the Tranny side you'll find a 17mm Nut on Each side of the engine, w/ a crush washer.

"I don't see anything obviously out of whack in that picture, nor any reason your non-standard procedure shouldn't give a good result"

- Maybe , the only thing I can think, is that in the meantime of me smearing it w/ my finger and putting on the Cam tower, it tacked up too much bc it was too thin.....


"But I want you on my race team, so you can fix a bent valve or two for me at the track if need be. I sure am wedded to my engine stand for a job as big as you undertook."

My smaller hands helped with this Big job.. in the car.

Thanks for the tips.. Ill try to post some pics.

[Walt Fricke]

I circle each valve area with a bead, with side loops around each stud and locating hole for good measure, and call that good.

Being anaerobic, this stuff doesn't start hardening (at least not significantly in any reasonable period of time) while you are applying it. It only starts hardening when you put the parts together. That's when you need to get everything tightened down without stopping to do something else. No panic, this isn't like epoxy with a bit too much hardener added.

Your finger gooping method can't have put it on too thin. Remember the factory's small paint roller method - that coating is thin. Of course, if you swipped a finger all the way across some important area and wiped it all off there by mistake, that could be trouble. Doesn't look like it on your photo.

At the tranny end of the cam carrier, in the middle between the upper and lower covers, is a 17mm headed bolt. Actually, it is a special bolt with a precise lenght and a pointy end, and needs a crush washer. It holds the cam spray bar in place - the pointy end fits into a hole in the spray bar so all the little spray holes point to the right places. It mirrors the one on the other end that holds the external cam oiling line banjo in place. You probably didn't remove those bolts, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to replace the crush washers.

Walt Fricke

[GotaT]

Sounds good. When I redo the job, fairly shortly, I'll use that method of applying the sealant. Just as verification, You Dont make a solid bead from the intake side to the exhaust side, rather you make a Continuous loop Around Each intake/exhaust .. I understand I am being very particular but im sure you understand I really dont want to have to do this again, thinking I didnt apply it correctly.

Thanks

[Walt Fricke]

I don't put any sealant in the large area between intake and exhaust, because nothing needs sealing in that area. You can see that. I do, however, have sealant on that "middle" side of where the valves (and the oil) are. As you would expect - to have complete encirclement of the oil.

But if you want to put sealant there, be my guest. I don't suppose it hurts, the factory shows sealant there, and so does Wayne in his book. Most of the folks on this list who have rebuilt their engines seem put sealant there. I just find it a waste of time and sealant, and more to clean up next go around. Put another way, this is not important.

Like the others who have commented on your problem, I'd not be in a big hurry to pull things apart. Most of us have lived with worse leaks, if we understand the magnitude of this one. I know you have, though of course you didn't like it.

Next time you might consider applying the sealant to the cam carrier (cam tower) surface. Fewer obstacles there, you can use the factory tiny paint roller procedure on it if you want, and more importantly you can apply the goop with it facing up on your workbench. The only downside that I can see has to do with your doing this with the engine in the car (first time I have heard of anyone doing this, though doubtless people have done it on occasion). Maybe the extra limitations that imposes on maneuvering the cam carrier into position over all those studs increases the odds that a stud end might scrape the sealant off, or some piece of crud might get dislodged from a fender well and stick in the sealant. The engine doesn't care which side gets the sealant first.

Just for grins, you might want to buy that oil dye and a black light to help you better pin down just where this leak is. The real shame would be for this leak to be from something other than a failed head/carrier seal.

My leaks have always been from rocker shafts (even ones with RSR gaskets) and valve covers. It wouldn't hurt to recheck both the (higher than spec book) torque on those shafts, and by eyeball or finger make sure they are all in about the right position - the end of the shaft (not the hardware) roughly flush with the outside of the carrier on the "thin" side of the carrier casting.

One way to pretty much insure you don't have valve cover leaks is to purchase a set of the orange rubbery gaskets. Their only downside, that I have seen, is that if you pull things apart on a hot engine (like replacing a broken rocker shaft at a race track) they will tear. But it looks like they can be reused many times if the engine is stone cold before the work starts.

Leaks after rebuilds are annoying. I rebuilt a tranny last summer, and right away had a little leak from the shift fork cover plate. I don't use a gasket there, just the orange sealant like you have been dealing with. This time somehow something went wrong. Took me six months to get around to fixing it (if you have a leak, nice to have it in a place where draining and refilling the oil is the major task).

Anyway, hats off to you. I've never done this except with the engine on a stand with the heads facing straight up. I suppose you have pondered doing that - I think you would save time. The mind boggles at the effort involved to R&R the rockers the way you are doing it. Auto parts store engine stands aren't all that expensive, and can be modified to hold our engines.

Walt Fricke

[GotaT]

Thanks for the input.. My reasoning for "needing" to do it quickly at this point is because the little that it does leak is dripping Directly onto the Exhaust and causing smoke, which stinks and is causing my engine to become nasty with oil goop from the smoke it creates...

I need to get the photo of the "where to apply" on the tower side.

[GotaT]

Ok Guys, Ive finally been able to get photos of the Cam Tower Leak. Ive also run the car more and found a couple other Possible Problematic Areas. What are your thoughts?

***Recent Top End Rebuild (about 1000miles) New gaskets and Seals Everywhere

Photos Show:
1. Cam Tower to Head Leak which the oil runs along the cam tower to the front of the car and drips Right On the Exhaust.. Doesnt leak much, but Drips in the Worst spot

2. Cylinder to Case, shows some seapage of Oil.. What are your thoughts on this. New Gasket rings were installed recently w/ the top end job.

3. Oil Cooler Drip of oil. Cant tell where this is coming from?? I just put this said to be good oil cooler on and am getting this one drop shown on the bottom.. Which drips onto the Exhaust as well. New seals were installed. (Disregard the CV axle Grease, Fixed boot recently)

[viejopatron]

"(Disregard the CV axle Grease, Fixed boot recently)"

I thought you had sneezed.

[viejopatron]

Seriously now, Photo 3:Oil Cooler Drip of oil is a drip I had and traced to the short oil hose assembly which runs aft to oil tank. It was old and, while it felt tight at the hose assembly joint, would not seal. Had the hose rebuilt with new rubber and is now a no-leaker.

[GotaT]

I am not understanding which hose you are referring to. If you are talking about the Metal Line that runs under the engine and Joints to a Rubhber Line going to the tank, they are both new, and I couldnt see How oil could get on the cooler itself.. Please explain. Thanks for the post!

[Eagledriver]

I know you don't think your rocker arms shafts are leaking but have you checked all of them? The leaks at the heads look like they could be from the rocker shafts. The oil runs down the seam just like it would if the cam tower to head junction was leaking. When you pull off the exhaust valve covers you can see oil in the areas that the ends of the rocker shafts are. It pools in the area around one of the nuts that hold the cam tower on. On the intake side you can see oil in the ends of the rocker shaft bores if they are leaking.

Not much you can do about the cylinder base leak. Maybe try retorquing the headstuds. I like to use a non hardening sealant on the gaskets there to prevent leaks. You cannot use a hardening sealant like 574 or whatever you used on the cam towers because it will set before you get the heads torqued on.

-Andy

[GotaT]

Andy, I am really sure that rocker shafts arent leaking. I pulled the exhaust cover the other day and it was Dry.
what type of Non hardenign Sealant do you use and Where are youi talking about Applying it? THANKS

[GotaT]

Andy, I am really sure that rocker shafts arent leaking. I pulled the exhaust cover the other day and it was Dry.
what type of Non hardenign Sealant do you use and Where are youi talking about Applying it? THANKS

[viejopatron]

Here ya go, Mitch

Please note this a 2.2 setup.

[Eagledriver]

The non hardening sealant I use is an old tube of permatex. It's a black goop that stays pliable. Others that are used are Curil T and hylomar. If you go to NAPA autoparts and look for a sealer that says "non-hardening" you'll get something that works. You just use a thin layer on both sides of the copper gasket. You don't want a lot because it will squeeze out of the joint and you don't want it floating around your engine.

I just used some hylomar on my transmission seals based on Wevoids recommendation. I'm very happy with it. I don't have a source for it as Hayden gave me a used tube to put my transmission together with.

-Andy

[JWPATE]

Last tube of hylomar I bought was from the counter rack in a NAPA store.

[Walt Fricke]

JW - I went to NAPA a week or so ago to get some more Hypalon/Hylomar. The good blue stuff. They didn't have any. Said it was discontinued. Said there was one tube in Memphis or something.

Anyone heard anything about this?

Walt

[GotaT]

I use the Permatex Red stuff in the Metal Can.. Same sort of sealant, Non hardening? Used it on the case of my tranny.

[JWPATE]

Sorry to learn that NAPA have dropped Hylomar. In that case, I suggest that you get it from Pegasus Racing Supplies (they call it flange seal, I think). They also have Wellseal, for those times when you want something really thin.
James