The new PMO TBs

[CruiseControl]

Agree with Charles's comments with respect to using knowledgable dealers.

That said as a DIY, I fitted a Motec M600 almost two years ago to a 3.2L. There had/have been a few issues with the final operation to which Motec's direct support has been more than reasonable. A final issue still not 100% resolved is a drift with the ref/sync position only after about 5 minutes of track laps. The Motec diagnostics would be very hard to beat. Would be happy to detail the issues if there is interest. 3 hrs of Dyno time with a Motec familiar tuner only requiring minor changes. The end result was + 24HP at the rear.

Since the initial Motec install I have added dual WB O2 sensing, and twin plugging, and full engine rebuild initiated by valve guides. (270,000 kM)

I am expecting delivery of PMO throttle bodies (46mm) with the kit, tomorrow which were purchased through a local (Sydney) dealer. I faxed Richard from PMO (no email support address) with a question on some fittings hoping to have correct pieces on hand for the install. Richard provided the required detail however made no comment to the broader question on any other advice for the install.

Paul

[Dennis Kalma]

You know, I really don't see it your way about the throttle bodies....I can get the idea that the maker of the EFI system would be awfully reluctant to sell the ECU and parts to an end user, but I do not understand the logic behind the selling of the throttle bodies. I mean, how on earth could any one who can't get an EFI working blame the provider of the aluminium bodies?

Just don't get it and most definitely do not agree...

Dennis

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by Dennis Kalma

.....I mean, how on earth could any one who can't get an EFI working blame the provider of the aluminium bodies?

Just don't get it and most definitely do not agree...

Dennis

Hi Dennis:

ROFL,..You would never believe what people do when get in over their heads and violate the "Peter Principle",....

I've heard-seen almost everything and some fine folks become reluctant to accept responsibility when they sail in "uncharted waters" for themselves.

Not everyone is in the same situation of course but generally speaking, we are very careful who we provide these systems to ensure the end user is happy with the product and we are not subjected to issues arising from inexperience.

Knowing Richard @ PMO, he doesn't have the time to provide personal support for the installation, deployment, and tuning as that can be a permanent, full-time venture all by itself,.....

[jlmccauley]

I'm more interested in the second part of the original question - "Is this generally considered a more desirable setup these days over actual carbs?" I've got an 81 SC 3.0 that will be used on the street and track for DEs. Considering going to 3.5 and 10.5 CR twin plug. Haven't decided on induction system but love PMOs. EFI is so $$$. Have considered going low budget and keeping the CIS going to Max Moritz 3.4 9.8 CR. This is all new to me - HELP!

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by jlmccauley

I'm more interested in the second part of the original question - "Is this generally considered a more desirable setup these days over actual carbs?" I've got an 81 SC 3.0 that will be used on the street and track for DEs. Considering going to 3.5 and 10.5 CR twin plug. Haven't decided on induction system but love PMOs. EFI is so $$$. Have considered going low budget and keeping the CIS going to Max Moritz 3.4 9.8 CR. This is all new to me - HELP!

The bottom line is that IF,.....IF you have the resources to devote to all the dyno time & tuning to get the programming just right, its well worth the efforts. Most folks have no clue about the thousands of man-hours involved in tuning EFI so it seamlessly starts, warms up, idles, accelerates, and makes good power,..

The people who have actually done this have a good grasp of the time involved,...........

I would tell you that if you re looking for performance, I would replace the CIS without a doubt.

[Dennis Kalma]

For me it is a more desireable option, I lived with Webers on a previous project...while they made lots of power and were fun, the fuel economy was poor and exchanging 6 sets of jets and emulsion tubes to find the last little bit was expensive and a pain.

In terms of your choices, I have the Kremer 3.2 upgrade to a '79 3.0 case with CIS, 9.8 compression....I love it. Lots of power, no issues with detonation and generally a nice engine.

The project car is the one for the PMO or TWM throttle bodies, I have the Mahle 98 mm 10.3 pistons/cylinders, heads are with the good Dr. Steve getting made beautiful, 74.4 mm crank on a new Carrera engine case. My engine will be only 3.4 litre, but there is no doubt in my mind that the tunability of EFI is the thing to do. Plus I am going with CoP (coil on plug) for the twin spark ignition, EFI makes that a bit easier.

In terms of justification, it would be interesting to fully price a 5 year cost of webers versus efi, I think that efi will be better on fuel economy which is a little offset, plus the tunability is a plus.

Dennis

[Jeff Alton]

I had this same debate (efi or carbs) for my 3.4 twin plug motor. I went with the ITB's/EFI combo and have no regrets what so ever.....


Cheers

[sww914]

Imagine the volume of phone calls from end users of throttle bodies trying to set up their first EFI system. That alone would convince me to sell only to qualified installers. The throttle bodies probably wouldn't be the problem usually, but you know how PC computer repairs go, the software guy blames the hardware guy, and the hardware guy blames the software guy, and that's for a product that we all have at home and at work.

[Jeff Alton]

I had this same debate (efi or carbs) for my 3.4 twin plug motor. I went with the ITB's/EFI combo and have no regrets what so ever.....


Cheers

[shbop]

This whole conversation is starting to smell bad. If PMO, or any other manufacturer doesn't want to sell their products to the end user, I say F'm. You guys that own shops, and do repairs, ought to be saying the same thing. It's money in your pocket, when a guy can't figure it out, or wants to buy dyno time and help, but to take the position that sales should be limited in some way as to who can buy--?? You guys sound like you've been drinking Koolaide. Those who have decided this is a good thing must have bumped their heads on the door-jamb this morning. The issue shouldn't be whether or not you have the knowledge; the issue should be whether or not you want to spend your money.

[Jeff Alton]

Jon brings up a good point. Bolting a set of ITB's on is about as tough as changing a tire, well maybe slightly more, say akin to changing spark plugs. Sure, balancing them can be tricky, but so are carbs and I believe he will sell those to individuals??

I would think a fair number of folks who would be in the market for these plan on having a tuner familiar with their chosen ECU do the tuning anyways so that could eliminate some worries.


Cheers

[Henry Schmidt]

The building of high performance engines is half art half science. Some people just don't to get it. Why should a merchant waist his or her valuable time with a project doomed to failure? Just for the money?
I will not sell anything to a customer if I feel the end result will be a failed project. If I am wrong in turning down money to compromise my principles, then I'll be wrong.
I have been known to refuse a sale to a person from a country that has political views that differ from mine. Bad business? hell yes. Sometimes there is more to life than profit, peace of mind for one thing.
Life is too short to compromise integrity for money. Richard at PMO understands this and I applaud him for it.
Cheers

[Dennis Kalma]

Ok, is any of you fine vendors out there planning on building a set up with the PMO's and some good EFI? I am not averse to buying expertise, if you guys have built a better mousetrap, happy to give you the business....

Steve? Henry? ...? Any volunteers to take on a terminally anal Dutchman who wants to have a 3.4, high compression (10.3), S cammed, CoP dual ignition, SSI (too small, I know), stock muffler, Weber air cleaner EFI set up? Use is street and touring, so fuel economy and durability is a higher priority than absolute power.

Dennis

[Jeff Alton]

The key to EFI is tunning, the install, and balancing can be handled by one with a few skills and patience. I tinker with my laptop on my motor, but just for education purposes, I leave the tuning to the pro who does it for a living. I think most EFI horror stories are from people trying to tune it on their own, plus some systems are much easier to work with than others...

Henry is right though, selling a product to someone who is not capable of completing the task is asking for headaches and possibly having that customer be pi$$ed at you when things did not turn out. Then he tells all his buddies and so on......

If you can rebuild your own motor, you can install EFI, but by no means does that make you capable of doing the tuning.

Cheers

[shbop]

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

The building of high performance engines is half art half science. Some people just don't to get it. Why should a merchant waist his or her valuable time with a project doomed to failure? Just for the money?
I will not sell anything to a customer if I feel the end result will be a failed project. If I am wrong in turning down money to compromise my principles, then I'll be wrong.
I have been known to refuse a sale to a person from a country that has political views that differ from mine. Bad business? hell yes. Sometimes there is more to life than profit, peace of mind for one thing.
Life is too short to compromise integrity for money. Richard at PMO understands this and I applaud him for it.
Cheers

99.9% of merchants and vendors do it to make money, and I applaud them for it. If you and Richard make up the other .1% that's swell, and maybe one day they'll erect a statue with your names on it, so you can have the recognition you feel you deserve. I'm pulling for you, as I happen to think you build beautiful motors, but I didn't get the memo that appointed you and Richard the guardians of all Porsche-motors-to-be-built. Perhaps I misplaced it, I'll look around.

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally Posted by shbop

.......edit...... but I didn't get the memo that appointed you and Richard the guardians of all Porsche-motors-to-be-built. Perhaps I misplaced it, I'll look around.

I will not speak for anyone except myself but I will say that I am the guardian of the advise and time I give to customer and enthusiast alike.
If I believe that a path taken by someone asking for my products or advice is a path to failure, I am free to choose not to waist either. If you didn't get this memo I'll repeat it.
If I believe that a path taken by someone asking for my products or advice is a path to failure, I am free to choose not to waist either.

We live in a free society that allows you and me to choose the projects in which we will or will not participate.

Erect a statue to that.

[Bullet Bob]

As a business owner and Porsche enthusiast I can relate to both sides of the argument. I'm also sure that PMO is well aware that they are leaving the door wide open for competition with that approach. Hargett Precision... They have ITBs coming out, right? Serving the customer is a great path to success. Look at Pelican Parts!

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally Posted by Bullet Bob

As a business owner and Porsche enthusiest I can relate to both sides of the argument. I'm also sure that PMO is well aware that they are leaving the door wide open for competition with that approach. Hargett Precision... They have ITBs coming out, right? Serving the customer is a great path to success. Look at Pelican Parts!

At this point, Hargett Precision is not selling their product to the general public either. Mark is still in the R&D stage of development as is Richard at PMO.
They will both let the experts and qualified enthusiasts develop their product before releasing them to the public.
Selling a well developed product with technical support is the path to success. Delivering an underdeveloped product to any fool willing to buy it is a path to unrepairable brand damage.
Quick buck artists live in the shadows of this type of sales and marketing.

[Peter Kelly]

I am confused as to why you guys are sweating about being able to buy the PMOs... what do they offer that you can't get from a set of TWM 3003's ? I looked at the TWMs at PRI and they seem very well thought out and a proven product.

And another thing, Henry, I applaud your independence. As the owner of a business which has been building racing products for 22 years, I completely understand where you are coming from.

[shbop]

I am confused as to why you guys are sweating about being able to buy the PMOs... what do they offer that you can't get from a set of TWM 3003's ? I looked at the TWMs at PRI and they seem very well thought out and a proven product.


I don't think anyone is sweating being able to buy them, it's the attitude about who should be allowed. If in fact they are still a product in the developmental stage, the point is moot. If they are not, then certainly the decision on how to market them is an assessment of opportunity costs.

Henry, I can read the regular size font, if you want to yell, go outside and let'r buck.