The new PMO TBs

[rsscotty]

There are some un-answered questions about laptops, and finding one that with work with different ECU s. You can still buy from at least three or four name brand companies, laptops that have the ports available to communicate with most all ECU.

Panasonic....MPC....IBM....Dell.....Toshiba....HP. ..... pick your price range, this will narrow down the choices even more.

As far as the Motec M48..about $2300.00 with no options enabled. DOS being used in this ECU is definitly dated, but the M48 works so well one cannot complain. I take that back...I can complain a little. If you want better...spend 1K more and get a no optioned M600. Still worth every penny and my #1 choice. You get what you pay for. What other company has an engineer that would actually answer questions on a EFI forum on Christmas day?????
Whatever one may save on a lower price ECU, he will loose in labor woes (problems) on another. Every one is a new adventure. The only way to get REALLY good and have a great running engine is to stay with Motec or DTA , one or both. It will simplify your life. Not that other systems won't work...I just have such a large MAP file base for the above mentioned, it doesn't make good business sense to keep losing time on other systems. None are perfect, but the customer always wants a perfect running engine..like Motronic.

This comes from about six years of semi daily tuning...........and always thinking about it.
Street cars can involve much more time consumption than track cars for driveability tuning, and you can get a real good starting, running engine if time is no object.

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally Posted by shbop

99.9% of merchants and vendors do it to make money, and I applaud them for it. If you and Richard make up the other .1% that's swell, and maybe one day they'll erect a statue with your names on it, so you can have the recognition you feel you deserve. I'm pulling for you, as I happen to think you build beautiful motors, but I didn't get the memo that appointed you and Richard the guardians of all Porsche-motors-to-be-built. Perhaps I misplaced it, I'll look around.

Jon
You arrogantly proclaim to have intimate knowledge as to the motivation behind 99.9 % of all merchants. Then with a bit of sarcasm ridicule me for putting quality added service ahead of profit.
I would say that your 99.9% number says more about your motivation than the motivation of most business owners. Especially those who create a product. If you offer a quality product or service you can expect a reward. Profit for the sake of profit yields dissatisfied customers.
I would contend that most merchants seek to add a modicum if not a plethora of value to a products for which they will be compensated. The symbiotic relationship between a customer and a merchant can/should best be described as mutually beneficial. If a manufacturer sells a product that best serves the customer with an installation by a qualified technician, then that requirement makes sense. I'm I wrong here? If so, Please explain.

As for the yelling (your word), sometimes large print is just that. My intent was to make certain you would not have to search for my meaning. If the bold print damaged your sensibilities then please accept my apologies.

[Dennis Kalma]

Only real advantage of the PMO's is that they come with a built in vacuum take off and an available billet manifold for providing vacuum boost for power brakes. The TWM's can be modified to do the same thing, but there is advantage to have it done for you complete with a nice look....

Dennis

[cnavarro]

Having a built in vacuum take off and an available billet manifold for providing vacuum boost for power brakes is a nice addition.

Regarding laptop for tuning, I partially prefer a dos environment so that I can use an old Itronix military spec laptop off ebay for cheap. They are nearly indestructible. I've driven over one with an suv before accidently and did no damage. Last one I got delivered was just a few hundred dollars.

[Dennis Kalma]

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

Jon

I would contend that most merchants seek to add a modicum if not a plethora of value to a products for which they will be compensated. The symbiotic relationship between a customer and a merchant can/should best be described as mutually beneficial. If a manufacturer sells a product that best serves the customer with an installation by a qualified technician, then that requirement makes sense. I'm I wrong here? If so, Please explain..

While generally I agree with you Henry, in this case I would want the caveat that not all customers are the same, you really do not know them very well in many cases, some are better qualified than others. Certainly you can recommend and you are free to sell to who you please, just as I am free to buy from who I please, I just object to the blanket "we will never sell to an end user" approach.

I just went through this with my air/air heat exchanger...Lennox would not even talk to me or sell me any parts, their logic was that it was far too complicated for a homeowner and I needed to go through a dealer. None of the dealers were even interested in repairing the unit, they said replace it ($3500 or so) and if I wanted a repair I was welcome to book a date in mid-January and they would come and check it out (and likely recommend replacing the whole thing).

I did some digging, found the OEM, they were more than happy to sell me the $186 circuit board that I knew was the culprit, I replaced it and voila....it has been working perfectly for the last month.

My point? Not all customers are the same. Not all customers demand unreasonable things. Not all customers expect everything for nothing right now. I don't like being treated as a stereotypical dumb-as-a-post customer any more than you would like being stereotyped as a rapacious, money grubbing vendor (which, IMHO you are not).

I'd be a lot happier if PMO took the view that they were selling a piece of aluminium that did not come with support other than if there were an actual defect in the product and did not **presume stupidity**.

I am many things, but Mrs. Kalma raised big, fat kids, not dumb ones.

Dennis

[Henry Schmidt]

Dennis
Thanks for the feed back.
You are correct, Not all customers are the same. Just as all jurors are not the same. It seems only people stupid enough to end up on a jury are on a jury.
That said, if you are not dumb-as-a-post (your words) then my guess is you can figure out how to buy whatever it is you need even if you must go through a vendor. Your story clearly illustrates my point.
Wrightwood Racing will not sell direct to the end user and yet they offer a great product and those who want their products seem to find them.

As for "never going to sell to the end user" that is not what PMO is saying. At this time, his new product will best serve the end user if it is purchased through a vendor. If that vendor knows you he will also know your capabilities.

[Peter Kelly]

Originally Posted by Dennis Kalma

Only real advantage of the PMO's is that they come with a built in vacuum take off and an available billet manifold for providing vacuum boost for power brakes. The TWM's can be modified to do the same thing, but there is advantage to have it done for you complete with a nice look....

Dennis

The TWM 3003s I looked at at PRI had a "built in" vacuum manifold for all 3 bores, and one tap at the end. Even slicker than a separate billet manifold.

And if you want to buy PMO's they are offered for sale on the Clewett web site. Like Henry said, all ya gotta do is look around a little.

And as for manufacturers not selling direct to end users but rather only through dealers, this happens all the time, don't feel so put out. Every try to call Dodge and buy a truck? course not, ya go to the dealer.

[shbop]

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

Jon
You arrogantly proclaim to have intimate knowledge as to the motivation behind 99.9 % of all merchants. Then with a bit of sarcasm ridicule me for putting quality added service ahead of profit.
I would say that your 99.9% number says more about your motivation than the motivation of most business owners. Especially those who create a product. If you offer a quality product or service you can expect a reward. Profit for the sake of profit yields dissatisfied customers.
I would contend that most merchants seek to add a modicum if not a plethora of value to a products for which they will be compensated. The symbiotic relationship between a customer and a merchant can/should best be described as mutually beneficial. If a manufacturer sells a product that best serves the customer with an installation by a qualified technician, then that requirement makes sense. I'm I wrong here? If so, Please explain.

As for the yelling (your word), sometimes large print is just that. My intent was to make certain you would not have to search for my meaning. If the bold print damaged your sensibilities then please accept my apologies.

Henry, what you misconstrue as arrogance is actually confidence and enthusiasm in the free market system. Capitalism. You may not like it much, but it's served us well for a long time. It's served us almost as well as our jury system, but I gather from your remarks, you're not fond of that either. Stick with what you know. Building motors. You're good at it, and I've certainly enjoyed looking at them.

Oh, and the "font" thing, you're good at that too.

[Dennis Kalma]

Ok, well, that was fun.

Now about those PMO's....has any of our expert builders on this list tried them or planning to? Any comments about their characteristics, advantages and so forth? is the Delco TPS an issue?

Dennis

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally Posted by shbop

Henry, what you misconstrue as arrogance is actually confidence and enthusiasm in the free market system. Capitalism. You may not like it much, but it's served us well for a long time. It's served us almost as well as our jury system, but I gather from your remarks, you're not fond of that either. Stick with what you know. Building motors. You're good at it, and I've certainly enjoyed looking at them.

Oh, and the "font" thing, you're good at that too.

Jon
As eloquent as your previous post is you really are missing the point.
No one, least of all me is challenging the virtues of capitalism. The conversation is about who has the right or even responsibility to decide marketing strategies within that system. Free market does not mean a market free of responsibility. Manufacturers must choose their own marketing strategies and must also decide the roll that quality vs. profit will play in these strategies. Building in value before profits is a benefit to capitalism not a challenge.
The same is true of my comment about the jury system. Our jury system is the best in the world all be it flawed by our system of choosing jurors.
Our jury selection system gives us juries tainted by prejudice and ignorance. Imagine if you would, what the verdict might have been if the OJ jury could have spelled DNA. Professional jurors might well be a way to generate jury verdicts devoid of ignorant/ stupid conclusions and manipulation by over aggressive lawyers. Legal conclusions like “if it doesn’t fit, you must acquit” will become lyrics in a rap video not defense tactics.
In your comment “Stick with what you know.” you once again spew your arrogance as if you have some clue about who I am or what I know. Shame on you.

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally Posted by Dennis Kalma

Ok, well, that was fun.

Now about those PMO's....has any of our expert builders on this list tried them or planning to? Any comments about their characteristics, advantages and so forth? is the Delco TPS an issue?

Dennis

Clewett Engineering has pioneered the development on these throttle bodies(TB) and has experience with both PMO TB and Electromotive injection systems to go with them.

http://www.clewett.com/

[304065]

GENTLEMEN

May I suggest we resume the discussion of PMO TBs?

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally Posted by john_cramer

GENTLEMEN

May I suggest we resume the discussion of PMO TBs?

You can, of coarse suggest a change of direction. This is the nature of a free and open discussion.
Might I suggest that it is easier to ride a horse in the direction it's going.

[911 tweaks]

I naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah that!

[Dennis Kalma]

Any obvious advantages of PMO's over TWM's? I thought (and was corrected) that the PMO's got a billet vaccum source out of each throat but I gather the TWM's have a built in port as well, albeit without the billet manifold.

I think the TWM's are cheaper though, and reading fairly few experiences with them they seem to work. Anyone comment on TWM's in terms of what they do/how they work/how are they built/priced etc?

Dennis

[1meansc]

The main problem with the vaccum source on most TB installations, is the pulsing that occurs. On a common intake plenum setup the pulses are all balanced out in the plenum.

On a TB installation, the volume of the vaccum source is not large enough to balance out the pulses. If you are using the vaccum source for the ECU, it will have a problem to get a smooth reading.

One thing to do is mount a small box on between the ITBs, with about 8mm hose, of equal length, from each TB. The box would have 7 ports. 6 for the TBs and one to the ECU. This helps to balance out the pulses. This was done on either the 956 or 962.

[Jeff Alton]

I built a small vacuum manifold for my ITB's and each throttle feeds into it via a vacuum line. My vacuum is rock steady, does not fluctuate. Pretty simple to do. This is with a mod-S cam in the 3.4.

Cheers