How much will it cost me to rebuild vs. having a pro do it?

[SpeedracerIndy]

My 81 RoW SC is in need of a rebuild. I am evaluating my options and am really confused because the prices I'm coming up for parts, are nowhere near what my local shop is quoting me to do the job. The below listed prices are for a top end only rebuild. The engine has less than 90,000 miles so I don't see the need to split the case.

Option 1: Rebuild it myself, and have the heads/valves done by the local pro. I'm getting a cost in parts through the rebuild wizard of around $2000. My local pro charges $1,500 to do the heads. That's around $3,500 for me to do it myself.

Option 2: Have the pro do it. He quotes $7,000 (includes an engine dyno pull to verify performance).

Is the labor really that much, or am I leaving something out? For $7,000 I could almost find a 3.6 to drop in there!

I know there are benefits to having the pro do it, since he is VERY well respected for aircooled 911 engines, but I don't know if I can swallow that huge price difference. Since I'm planning on keeping this car for a LONG time, I am not worried about the credibility a pro would add to the value of the rebuild.

Thanks in advance for setting me straight.

[lindy 911]

I think it has a lot to do with how well suited you are to turning the wrench. If you have some experience with engine building, doesn't really matter what kind, you can do this. I am in the middle of a total hot rod rebuild of a '78 3.0 and having a blast!

You can do a lot better on your head work prices. Call Arron Burnham at Rennwerks (805) 240-6931 and see my rebuild thread for photos of his work. The freight there and back for your heads is about $200.

I'm building a 3.0 with new pistons, used 46mm Webers, rebuilt and twin plugged heads (new exhaust valves and all new guides), Supertec head studs, Raceware rod bolts, used GE 60 cams and used SSI exhaust for $7,500 parts.

Other considerations are going to be how many parts you have that are reusable. The pistons and barrels are probably OK so you will need rings and a top end gasket kit. I don't think that's anywhere near the $2,000 you have so far. Anyway, you can do it yourself and one of the reasons is this site and Waynes book.

Lindy

[bullethole]

the other thing you should factor in is tools. Specific tools like the ones to hold the camshafts when you are torquing them (and they vary on a 3.0 some have the old big nut (needs a special crows foot, don't try and use a normal crowsfoot wrench). Things like ring expander, ring compressor etc. will all be needed. Other things which are cool and make life easier
Circlip injector (stomski racing it is worth the $80 price because the circlips just slip in with no fuss), mechanical chain tensioner (stomski again) for when you time the cams, the tool that holds a straight edge (stomski) for you when you measure the cam chain sprockets (important so that you don't have your cam chains tweaked). Ring gap grinder (yes you can do it with a file, but 70bucks at nappa for the tool) etc.

I invested about 700 bucks on tools for my first (just finished) rebuild, but that is an investment for the future (am working on a friends motor now). Had to buy the special crowsfoot and the socket that holds the cam for torquing as this motor was the older design. about $150 more (pull one cam chain cover and you can tell immediately which one).

Absolutely get Waynes book, i've done chevy and jeep motors (way back when i was in college), and would have NEVER touched the 911 without this tome infront of me.

To give a point of reference, the last time I rebuilt the motor (which included head work etc - this time i did not need that) it cost me ~8500. Parts are parts, and our host has some of the best prices arround. P&C's are outrageously expensive, there are some cheap chinese ones you will find on an ebay store, but i've heard bad things about them (though i think there is someone on this board who sells them after fully inspecting them. i don't know, so i'd stay with porsche parts, or JE Pistons (i have been told that they can be put in stock porsche nikisal cylinders, but i'm sure more expert folks will chiime in on this option)

[SpeedracerIndy]

Thanks guys. So what I'm hearing is that I really can get the job done for about half cost if I do it myself. But, I might need to plan on spending a little bit on tools.

As far as my skill level, I'm pretty confident. I have rebuilt the transmission in this car, as well as rebuilt a VW beetle motor with my dad when I was younger. (That's what started my obsession with these cars.) I've also taken apart almost every other part of this car, so it doesn't scare me too much. I have Wayne's book on it's way, should be here this afternoon, so let the studying begin!

I need to figure out what tools are really essential to the job that I don't have already. Is it like the transmission where you can buy the tools, but there are also homemade alternatives that work almost as well? Will any tools from rebuilding a VW beetle engine be useful? Where could I find a list of tools that are required?

Thanks again!

[lindy 911]

Everything you will need is described in the book that will be in your hands today. I find that most of the tools can be adapted from what I already have except for a few. Ring compressors can be found at NAPA that work just fine. I put my own cir clips in with a method I developed that works for me.

There are tools, however, that are specialized and you will need to either purchase (as I did) or borrow. The cam holding tool is a must as is the "Z" block for holding the dial indicator when timing the cam shafts. You will learn more as you get through the book. I read it and then re-read it. The second time through is a lot easier to understand as you have an idea of where it's going. As with any engine building it's important to be organized and clean. Waynes book puts a lot of emphasis on being clean; I guess there's lots of folks out there that just throw stuff together.

I'm 2/3 through with my rebuild and am now waiting on the cam sprocket tool and the "Z" block so I can shim the sprockets prior to timing the cam shafts, and then time the cams.

I am happy (as are about a thousand others here on this site) to help with any problems you might encounter. The greatest thing about this site is that you have first timers like me who read these posts and you also have the true experts who do the same. If I say something that is lame or off the wall wrong, more than likely someone else is going to call me out on it. So if you ask a question here you will more than likely get a series of answers that add up to the best way to solve your problem.

Hope this helps.

Lindy

[jimbauman]

Originally Posted by SpeedracerIndy

For $7,000 I could almost find a 3.6 to drop in there!

If you HAVE $7000, DO IT!!
JB

[Henry Schmidt]

I would doubt you can install a 3.6, DIY or pay an expert to do it "correctly" for $7000.00.

Good luck

edit>>>>Why so pessimist? Ask anyone on the board who has tackled a big job. It always takes more time and costs more money than you would have ever expected.

[jimbauman]

Absolutely. Usually an initial guess is 60% of the end cost. But then it doesn't seem so bad for some reason....

JB

[rvanderpyl]

Parts Cost + Machine work = Labour Cost My usual guideline for estimating how much it would cost to have done. So your numbers sound reasonable.

And there is no reason you can't do it yourself. Just expect it to take far longer than if you had it done, and since you will have plenty time to think about things as you are working through, expect a lot of 'while you are in there' to occur, raising the final cost.

[88-diamondblue]

The price for heads seems high to me unless it includes all new valves and springs. I did not need any new valves and my head work was around $475.00 plus shipping. I did a rebuild with new P&C's and spent about $7500 including a new clutch. Of course it was over what I originally estimated by about a $1000.

Doing the rebuild was one of the best things I have done. Highly recommended and very rewarding!

The result

[SpeedracerIndy]

Thanks again guys. I'm heavily leaning towards doing it myself now. Started reading Wayne's book, and it doesn't seem so hard now. I just have to find the time, ugh.

The price for my heads includes porting and flow benching with new valves and springs. The guy that I'm taking them to is known for his head work, so I'm splurging in that area. Everything else would be run of the mill rebuild. Of course I say that now. I'm sure before I know it I'll be looking for new P's & C's for a 3.2ss.

[snbush67]

Originally Posted by SpeedracerIndy

I'm sure before I know it I'll be looking for new P's & C's for a 3.2ss.

Good luck with that, probably the only option is to go new, the thread below has a lot of great information;


WTB 3.2 SS Pistons and Cylinders - can someone bump this in the AM

Shane

[CMDR Perry]

Speed I did my own top end last year. Total cost was $3800.00. Roughly 20% went for special tools, 27% for machine shop work and 53% for parts. This was all new seals and gaskets plus rings and complete valve job by a top shop.