Update --

the short block is buttoned up...

One concern... the threebond was really set up by the time I got the case halves torqued together. Think this will be ok?

Here are some pics...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1293235834.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1293237872.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1293235778.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1293235797.jpg

Update --

Supertec Studs in...
Pistons in Cylinders...

Installed #1. Checked Deck Height. 1.0 mm on edge without head. Performed Competition Engineering Flux Core measurement with Head installed since they are not flat pistons.. Flux Core measured little less than 1.5 mm.

All pistons installed. Wow.. that Stomski Racing Wrist Pin tool is very awesome! Used Threebond 1211 at the Cylinder/Case. Heads installed. Cam Towers installed.

I did not dry run the JE 9:5.1 / GT2-108 Cam for clearance because Camgrinder assured me I would have no issues. I am hoping he is right. If not, all Ill need to to is clean off the Threebond from the cam towers...

Here are some pics...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1294537399.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1294537422.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1294537445.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1294537473.jpg

In regards to not checking the piston/valve clearance...did you have any machine work done to your heads, crankshaft, rods, etc? I think the machining of these items could potentially put your pistons and valves closer (from what I'm reading in Wayne's book).

Purdy! Looking great!

They are CNC'd machined large port heads, racing springs... but nothing out of the ordinary that would impact clearances. No work other than polish on the crank and rods were in spec so no work on them.

I am hoping that with the almost 1.5 mm of piston to head clearance (using the flux core method) and the pretty deep pockets of the JE's... Ill be fine. Intake lift is .485 and exhaust lift is .470. Its not that I wont check... I fully intend to check it... its just that I didnt check it dry (without threebond) which would create a minor inconvenience if I need larger Shims...

Thanks!!

Brad,

Great build, it is coming along nicely.

Now is the time to double check and measure the combustion chamber volume. I did not measure mine after assemby, but wish I had. You can rotate the engine on the stand so that you can put liquid into the cylinder to measure the volume, a lttle might get by the rings but probaly not.

You will have plenty of clearance with those pistons, what size copper base gaskets did you end up using? I used .25mm.

Shane

I used the standard .25 mm.

Thanks Shane. I had planned on doing that. Ill have to read up on the procedure. Is it filled with the piston all the up or all the way down?

Any Cylinder Compression Stroke: Piston at TDC, Valves closed. ( you may have to back your rockers off if you already have them installed and adjusted.

For reference:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/519764-step-step-procedure-how-cc-your-head-volume.html

Thanks Shane.

Brad,

First of all, your build is looking great. I hope that once it's running, that your sense of satisfaction will be so great that you won't feel so bad about the water.

Second, on your post above, I know it's a moot point now as you're well on your way, but could Dougherty have selected a different cam grind for the new Mahles that would have been competitive in power and torque? Or was the GT2-108 the only way to get there, so you were forced to match the piston to the cam?

I'm not sure how I missed your thread, but good luck. Keep up the good work!

I spoke to John at length and to get the max low-mid range torque (3k-6k rpms) while taking advantage of the ITB's and large port heads he recommended the GT2-108 cams. he said it was between a DC 40 and DC 20 but closer to the DC40. On the Jerry Woods side, Its has a profile similar to a GE 60.

He had two issues with Mahle pistons... 1. He preferred a higher compression ratio than 9:3.1... and 2. He wanted more lift than a stock CIS piston could handle.

I am by no means an expert.. and obviously Steve W and Henry probably could have recommended a different cam that could have worked with CIS pistons... But I wanted to choose a cam based on the end goal not based on limitations of the piston size/shape...

There was also a cost concern. Did I really want to pay 5k for a CIS piston (max m) that wasnt really designed for ITB's and then choose a cam that was limited by the piston. I spent half that on my replated 3.2 Mahle's/JE's (EBS), have the same dimensions across the board of the Max M Mahle 3.2SS piston/cylinder and I can choose a cam based on the total setup and not have piston based limitations. I also bump the static compression over the stock 3.0 CIS piston from 9:3.1 to 9:5.1 which helps.

In this case I deferred 100% to John based on ITB's, Large port Heads, Racing Springs, and goal of max torque from 3-6k RPM's.

Thanks for your comments. I hope it runs great! The porsche 911 engine is a work of art and is actually quite easy to work on when you get into it thanks to all the people on here who have been there before...

Did you ever get any response to this? I'm just doing research for a future rebuild right now. But when I read this in Wayne's book, it was one of my concerns.

No I did not.

One difference is that I used Threebond as per Henry at Supertec. Wayne uses 574. Not sure if they act the same or not...

I'm interested in the answer as well.

Another related thing that I have recently found out is that Wayne recommends using the 574 on the bearing webs. However, according to one engine builder I spoke to, this is not the Porsche procedure. He believes that putting the 574 (or your choice of poison) there will add to the bearing clearance. Which I could imagine it's possible. Wayne actually goes as far as saying that putting the stuff on the webs will minimize or prevent case bowing, or something to that effect since I don't have the book with me now.

So, I guess this is another area the pros disagree on???

574, when cured, has a very strong shear. It will prevent the webs from moving under shear loads, that's why Henry and others recommend it's use on the webs. There is zero measurable difference in the ID of the mains. 574 is adding strength to the web joints by gluing the two case halves together.

Depending on the ambient temperature, Threebond gives you more time to get the cases together than 574. A dry run without sealant, in order to get a process established, helps.

^^^ With all due respect, I don't see how you can apply glue to surface and it be strong enough to "add strength to the webs", yet it has Zero dimensional impact on the bearings. Does that make sense to you??

Maybe the Threebond just normally gets squeezed out since it's supposed to stay fluid longer. But Brads question here is if it has hardened, do you need to worry?

When you apply it, I would guess you're easily looking at a 2 mil thickness or more, even if you tried to apply it light.

Brad, if you applied it to the webs, I think I would give a call to Henry and maybe Steve W to get their input. Added clearance on the webs is something I think you have to be careful with and could have an impact on your engine's longevity. If you only applied it to the outer area, and the threebond hardened, then the consequence might be simply an oil leak.

Now of course my disclaimer: Just my non-professional, never-rebuilt-a-flat six, but-trying-to-be-helpful opinion.

And with all due respect back; This IS Henry's method.

OK Lindy. I hope Henry can chime in.

On a separate subject, a few days ago I tried to send you a PM. Did you get it?

Thanks Lindy and sorry Brad for the HiJack.

In the end experts disagree. M Callas said no. Henry said yes. I went with Henry and used the 574 on the webs. Its probably overkill for a street motor but I like to listen to those who have gone before me... Hope I have No leaks!

On another thread a motorcycle guy said to let the threebond get a "skin" on it before pressing it together. So I suppose I am fine on that...

One concern... the threebond was really set up by the time I got the case halves torqued together. Think this will be ok?

Brad as no one has answered you on this I will. I used the Threebond on my case halves and also noticed it had a skin by the time I mated the halves properly. Gave me many sleepless nights until I got the motor back in the car and fired up. I have 500 miles on my rebuild now and not a drop of oil leaking anywhere which is most unusual. Anyway not to worry about it.

Thanks!

Update..

Checked my combustion chamber volume... Installed my Chain Housings. Will make a first pass at Timing today.

Spot on at 60-62CC on 1 and 4. So Im good... Should have close to 9:5.1 across the board. I just used the Medical 12 CC syringe and piece of Vacuum tubing and Rubbing Alcohol. Did it 3-4x. Got the same measurements each time.

Brad,

Thanks for measuring, this seems to confirm that the J&E pistons are designed to achieve the advertised CR when using stock heads, cylinders and recommended deck heights. I used a burret and I came up with the same numbers on my dry build of #1.

Make sure you prime the engine by building up oil pressure before you start it. I did this by shutting down fuel delivery until I had pressure.

I also had success by running the cams in at 2000 rpm for 20 minutes. But this could be an issue with glazing the cylinders and then the rings wont seat, I think the key is using the crappiest dino oil you can find for cam break in, change with fresh crappy oil then engine break in with a lot of uphill, wrong gear, low to high rpm runs.

Shane

Update --

I installed the cam Sprockets - completed the case / Itermediate shaft measurments to be sure they are in alignment.

Installed the 1 and 4 Rocker arms.

Changed the Idler Arm gears and installed the idler arms.

Ready to set the timing.

Sending my oil cooler to Tom Butler for cleaning and pressure checking.

Also decided that I am going to try to repair the ripped holes on my Fiberglass Shroud. I am having trouble spending $525 on a shroud when its in great shape except for the ripped holes at the top of the fan housing...

Stay tuned

Ok. When I line up #1, dot facing up, dial indicator on. Dowel pin in... there is NO way the right side (#4) is also able to have the dot up. The dot needs to be down? this runs counter to waynes book where he says have both dots up. This could be cam I am using? am i correct? If I try to set the dot up on the right side cam, Im on the lobe.

One dot up, one dot down.
 

I telll everyone that is how I timed my cams (Same as you are explaining) and they look at me like I am crazy.

I timed my cams as you are saying one one dot up, the other dot down, until now I thought I might have just got a weird set of cams with the dot in the wrong spot, but I think you have confirmed I was right.

My engine runs incredible, no issues. You got it right, keep on going. Call John Dougherty if you got his number see if you can get him to explain it to you.

I think it is simply a matter of the cams being set at 3.2 mm overlap, but I am not sure. All I know is it threw me off for a day, but I ended up timing one up and one down as you say.

I actually timed it starting with both dots up and treid to adjust the valves, I thought I had bent some valves. Luckilly the cams aligned and loooking at the original cams it only made sense to time one up and one down.

Please let me know if you find out more.

Shane

I would be careful.

If you have one of the cams out of phase and you rotate the crank, you will probably get contact, valve to pistons.

Wait for advise from the pros. All the photos I see in Waynes book and in Bentley show matching timing marks. Maybe you just have an out of phase pulley like Shane seems to have.

Alfonso,

Interesting point. The pulley is indexed on the crank shaft and is pinned in place. Is it possible to have a decent running engine with the crank pulley out of phase?

I cant really see how this is possible, like you say though it would be better to wait for some pros. Hopefully Camgrinder will respond.

Shane

The dots won't be facing up when you are measuring the valve lift. They will only be facing up when you set-up the initial cam timing. Once again it goes like this:

1. Set crank pulley to Z-1.
2. Set BOTH cams with dots (or key-ways) facing straight up.
3. Pin both sprockets and finger tighten the bolts.
4. Rotate the crank clock wise 360 degrees back to the Z-1 mark; this is when you are measuring the lift on #1.
5. If the measurement is not right on, rotate the cam until it is, without moving the crank.
6. Once #1 is correct, rotate the crank 360 degrees again and set #4 the same way as you did #1.

Keep this in mind: the valve lift is measured just as the intake valve is starting to open. As long as you have the rough timing set at Z-1 with both cams straight up you're good to go. All you're doing after that is fine tuning the cam timing.

READ THIS FIRST: When you set both cams with the dots up and the crank at Z-1 you have SET THE CAM TIMING. The measuring you do past this point is only to fine tune that timing.

If you did nothing more than set the dots on both cams straight up with the crank at Z-1 and called it a day, the motor will run. It won't run right, but it will run.

I only put the #1 rocker in and then set the cam. I don't put in the #4 rocker until I'm ready to set the 4-5-6 cam.

Hope this helps.

Lindy

I think I will remove the #4 rocker and try it this way.

The issue is really that regardless of the timing, dot up = "on the lobe" on the right side. There is no way that the rocker can be on the non-lobe part of the cam, and the dot up on the right side. Its physically impossible. When you look at the dot from the nut end, the lobe has started at the place of the dot. Its not full on the lobe (valve completely open), just starting the up tick on the lobe, but on the lobe nonetheless...

When you say "on the lobe" is it just starting up the ramp or is it fully open?

Just starting up the ramp... But not in the full "rest/non-lobe" position that is on the left side. When I put the dot down, it is at full rest and in the same position as the left side. Very interesting. Will have to take a look at my old SC cams to see how its different.

Don't worry, you're good. Remember that when#1 is at TDC on the power stroke #4 will be at TDC just starting the intake stroke. #4 will be just the opposite of #1.

Lindy

Great. Thanks.

Nice description Lindy.
I always stamp the dot inline with the keyway.

Thanks John. Approeciate your time! Cant wait to start it up!

Shane, sounds like yours are an exception...

Brad,

I was wrong, perhaps I am remembering the difficulty I had timing the cams and that I had tried several times unsuccessfully before finally getting it right.

After reading Lindys post I rememeber that the dots were in line with the keyways. Thanks Lindy.

I thought that I had ended up with the dots opposite, but I probably didnt. I do not plan on taking the chain housings off to check. But when I do I'll take a picture.

This is the exact reason I have the disclaimer in my signature. I am glad you got the right answer. SmileWavy

Shane

Great stuff!! I love this place!

Update --

Cams Timed. Range was 3.0-3.3 mm... I have 3.25 on Left and 3.20 on the right.

Thanks Walt Fricke, Bruce (Flat6Pac) and Lindy!