Another 3.0 Rebuild
 

Ok. I am an idiot. I read in many places that alittle water in the intake will solve my carbon buildup... so lets get the water out then... a couple pops later (sounded like rings snapping) and i have loss of power, oil smoke out of the tailpipe and breather system, and a car that runs like ****... So I assume the worst. Broken rings? Car has 96k miles.. so while abit early... i was using 1 QT per 600 miles so probably needed a top end refresh anyway... and I am secretly excited to be doing this... although my wife and bank account do not share my hidden excitement.

The good news is that I have relatively new 40 mm PMO ITB's, SSI/Dansk Sport 2 in 1 out, MSD ignition, new clutch/flywheel, MS 2 V3.57 EFI controller, Recurved Dizzy thats all in at 3k RPM (Thanks Barry Hershon)... so I have the basics already on the car. When I say new.. I mean all of this has happened within the last 3k miles.

So engine is now out of the car...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288311887.jpg

I have ordered heads from Steve Weiner at Rennsport Systems. He is a great guy.. People like him deserve our business.

Heads are Large Port (CNC'd for flow), new valves, new PB Guides, Viton Seals, Aase racing springs, Ti retainers.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288312486.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288312498.jpg

So.. I have some decisions to make. I am not a half assed kind of guy. Im not going to go on the cheap to save 1k on a 12k project... on the other hand 1k is 1k and I dont want to waste 1k either. I am also not going to totally redo the top half and not replace bearings inside. The case will get opened up. I only want to do this once.

I need to choose a cam. Steve and I will talk about this more but Im leaning GE 20 or GE 40 Cams. This is a street car and i live below 6k RPM's so I dont want to lose any low end torque.

I need to choose P &C's. I use Chevron premium (92 Octane). Not going to pay $8 a gallon on Race gas, not going to twin plug.

Mahle stock 9.3:1? Mahle Euro 9.8:1?
Nickies / JE 9.5:1 stock 95 MM or 98MM

All four of these are going to run me 4k, so I might as well do it so that have the best of both longevity and performance. On the other hand this is where you could save some money.

I dont know what I have yet but I could save 3k and rehone / reuse... or Buy a set of replated cylinders from Millenium Plating and a set of JE's and save 1k. I could buy new AA Performance cylinders and save 1k.

This is where I dont want to spend 7-8k on Cams/Heads/Bearings/incidentals and then shoot myself in the foot to make it 10k vs 12k.

Any insight and recommendations would be helpful.

I plan on tearing into it over the next few weeks... Ill report back on what damage I find. What kind of P&C's I have with pics...

Stay tuned. Thanks for your support.

Brad, sorry to hear of your misfortune. This will be a fun project. I think you should delay some of your decisions until you tear down and asses the damage.

If you have to replace the PC set, I have a nice set of 98mm cylinders for you. I will make you a deal you can't refuse.

I think you will like the 40 cams. They have a similar torque curve down low and pull great up top. You can get a custom grind with a slightly wider lobe center. This will help broaden the torque curve and ease some of the pains of speed density tuning with the ITB/EFI setup.

Thanks Jaime. I will definitely wait to make decisions until I get it open. The only sure thing are the heads Ive already ordered and a cam that is better suited to ITB's.

Thanks for the recommendation. I need to talk to camgrinder or jerry Woods.

I definitely might take you up on the 98's. What are they? Bored Mahle's? Plated? if Plated, By Whom? or are they Aftermarket? Brand? I am hoping I get lucky and have Nikasils which would change the options abit. We'll see. Ill let you know. I am not excited about paying 4k for P&C's and several people told me to not go with stock pistons since im running a more agressive non-stock Cam. Im reluctant to go with AA performance or QSC Cylinders to save money... and Perfect Bores and Nickies are basically the same price now. So choices are limited unless I go with Bored/Plated Mahle's with JE's.

My set of 98mm are factory Mahle 98mm. They are Nikasil and while they are used but measure in-spec. I can not say the same for the pistons. :( Part of the set are now ashtrays/paperweights.

Can i use je's with those? what would i need to do to them? Any issues with expansion rates?

Yes you can.

Thanks. Let me open it up and see what is going on in there and Ill let you know. :) Thanks !

subscribed!

Karaya

Update -- Made some progress today.

Engine on a stand, exhaust off, Fan/Alternator off. Right side pretty close to being able to identify the damage done. Ill post pics as soon as I get the cam tower and heads off...

Ok. So I ripped apart the right side today (where the pop occured).

The good / bad news... Here is the broken middle ring. So as I suspected. Would it be normal to break the middle ring? That seemed odd to me.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288554515.jpg

The head looked normal. Valve properly seated. No obvious damage. Steve W ported/CNC machined being on the way and being used anyway because I use some oil and its time.

More news. I have Kobelschmidt Alusil 95mm cylinders.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288554609.jpg

So question for those reading this...

Replate my Alusil Cylinders or buy a set already replated (millenium plating). Keep 95 MM size and buy JE's which may be better matched to the GE 40 cam and ITB's plan... (2k total).

or Buy Nickies / JE combo (4k total).

This is a street car. So dont want to spend the extra 2k unless I have to... but I do want these to last 100k miles and offer trouble free performance.

I also could go 3.2SS if I am spending the 4k. Cant do that with my 95mm cylinders because they have the sealing ring although EBS could also do those as well for $2,500 (still 1,500 less than nickies).

Thoughts?

Bad news
 

Ok... so I figured the middle broken ring was a potential farce (broke it when i removed it possibly?). Although it could have been part of the event I suppose. Here is my real issue...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288558958.jpg

So I need to tear down the other side... and open it up. So far its one compromised Rod. the third on the right side doesnt look right to me either. may be slightly tweaked/compromised.

Stay tuned.

could this have caused any crank damage? I hope not...

:eek:wow! I left my house one day at around 4:00pm or 4:30. came back around 6:00 and ther was water pouring out my garage door. When I opened the front door there was 2 inches of water on the hardwood foyer and a small niagara coming down over the top walkway and stairs. As I wetvacced up about 600 gallons of water that day, all I could think of was I guess now we can get those hardwood floors, countertops, slate floors we've wanted, I just have to learn how to do all of the labor myself-(because I too am an idot!). Welp.. 2 years later and almost finished. I can see your semi-ironic excitement and understand. Although My story maybe out of place here, the wisdom I've gained from the experience, I'll share with you anyway, Know when to let a pro handle some of the work. It maybe more expensive, but the time it will save you is to quote a really played out phrase,-----PRICELESS!!:D

Goodluck.

Thanks for the sage advice. Yes. Ill let the pros handle most of the work. Steve W is doing the heads.
Ill rely on Steve and EBS and others here to advise on the piston/cylinder choice. Will get John (camgrinder) handle the cams and will let Protechnik handle the machine shop work.
I will just pay alot of money and assemble. :)

Cool. I'll follow this one.

How do rods get tweaked like that?

Post #1 indicates he hydro-locked the engine by trying to de-carbon-ize his cylinders with a little too much water into the air intake.

Ah. Not familiar with the damage caused by hydro-lock. Now I know.

On a budget, I'd use the cylinders you have but re-plate and stay 95mm. You can source JE pistons for about $900 including rings that work well with a GE40 cam. You can also source a set of used SC rods for about $150 and have them re-sized and bushed along with ARP bolts.

I doubt you're going to see any crank damage as it did not run long this way. I think if you're this far you may as well split the case and re-new the bearings and have the crank checked and polished. I highly recommend having the bearings and piston skirts coated at Poly-Dyne in Houston. Also have them do the piston tops with the heat coat, it is worth the extra step. It's about $300 for all the pieces but well worth it in the long run.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288619272.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288619302.jpg
Lindy

Thanks Lindy.

That is the plan so far.

I have a call into Steve W and EBS on the replating.. and cant see the extra 2k now on Nickies since its a street car and there doesnt appear to be any damage to the cylinders. They all look brand new..

I also cant see $1600 a set they want for new rods. I need to have all of them looked at to be sure that non of others are tweaked... but I do have a budget and would rather spend my money on the cams and heat coating.

The cams are perfect. no pitting. they look like they were just polished. I thank Kendall GT1 for that!

Which bearings did you have done?

Make sure to discuss aftermarket pistons with Steve prior to buying any. I ended up buying good used RSR Mahles instead of the JE/Weisco's. Im just sayin...SmileWavy

I had the main and rod bearings coated. You need to pay attention to the over-spray on the back side of the bearings, lightly sand it off if there is any with 400 grit emery cloth. This is the surface that mates with the case and the sanding marks on the bearing allow it to grab the case a little better.

Lindy

Which coating of theirs did you use? Was it the "Dry-Film Lubricant Coating"?

Thanks

twin plug
 

Brad:
Don't discount twin plugging. It about $400 to add the second plug hole while the heads are out. Get it done, add the second plug and just put the lower valve covers on. Then its there when you can afford to add the ignition, be it coil packs or distributor.

Twin plug makes the motor far more resistant to detonation regardless of compression. Its cheap insurance and you could easily run midgrade in the cooler months to make up the cost.

FWIW, more compression is better effiency and it is also one of the major drivers in cam choice. Run around 9.5-10:1 and alot more cam choices become avaiable.

A personal, devils note on cams... most folks will tell you to way under cam. IMHO if your doing port work anything less than a 'modern S' is silly. Take a serious look at a DC 44 on 102 LC. See Cam Arnotts 2.3 thread. I guess my point is don't cheat yourself with some E cam.

If your truly on a tight budget, take a hard look at head work vs beefing the bottom end (R&P rods, center drill crank). I've also been told that the big port SC heads are really, really good out of the box from porsche. To this point there are some big port (stock 40 mm ports) 2.8 SS on pelican running RSR sprints that have been described as magic on the street.

As full disclosure, Steve did my heads for a 'just this side of race' early Al case 2.8 and they are purdy sitting on the bench top... 47.5 mm intakes and all. I'ts 'only' another $1500 or so for CNC porting, so why not do both :D. I did SmileWavy. Come on over to the empty wallet side... :eek::D.

tadd

That is correct. The piston crowns were done with the heat shield coating and it works.

Lindy

John (camgringer) recomended a GT2 profile on a 108 lobe center. Not as wild as the DC40-108, and not as peaky as the DC30.. so that is settled. :)

Found a set us used Matched Rods from a fellow Pelican. Thanks Tom (tom1394Racing)!

Havent talked to Steve W yet on P&C's. Left him a VM and email. Mondays are always busy days. So far after talking to Don at EBS.. Ill send my current KS Cylinders for replating (Millenium Plating) and a set of 9.5:1 JE's... Unless Steve W Talks me into a different approach.

Thanks All. Plan coming together.

Spoke to Steve W on a variety of topics. What a wealth of information.

He wasnt thrilled with my "cheap" P&C solution. I need to balance cost vs longevity with his recommendation -- Stock Mahle 9.3:1 (3800) or MM Set (4700) that will last forever with Replated KS/JE (2000) which will last 50k miles and wont have the tight clearances (read increased oil use and noise)... the Mahle's are double the price. HMMM

I do have a budget.

He also had alot of ideas on Cams (GT2 profile vs 964), Rods (pauter vs rebuilt stock), Rod bearings, Gasket kits.. Damn... if money were no object... I need to balance the price tag against not wanting to re-do this in 5 years.

Not sure if this has been considered so how about having current pistons machined to clear the valves. It's certainly not the best piston design but if you're not going to make this a race engine, how much will the new pistons add in performance if you stay at 9.3:1?

According to Steve the issue is that the wear points on the KS Alusil piston (top ring grove and skirt) makes this virtually impossible. If these were Nikasil Mahle then it wouldnt be an issue. So its new Nikasil Mahle in stock form (3800) vs replating the KS Alusil with Nikasil and JE's for 2k. The Mahle's are obviously probably better suited for a street car... but the price.. wow...

Thoughts?

Really? The longevity of JEs is only 50k?

Try the want ads:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-used-parts-sale-wanted/572240-fs-3-0sc-mahle-pistons-9-3cr.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-used-parts-sale-wanted/567091-sale-high-compression-3-0sc-204bhp-pistons-cylinders.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-used-parts-sale-wanted/571969-fs-84-86-911-pistons-cyls.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-used-parts-sale-wanted/568668-fs-us-spec-sc-pistons-cylinders.html

If the lifespan is that short for JEs, I'd go for a more durable package.

I have over 10k on my rebuild with JEs and it still feels like I was putting that thing back together yesterday - it was 2 years ago. Can't imagine opening it back up in roughly 3 years.

I was told by two builders that we all consider expert that they will last 50-60k miles. If I am looking for a 100k solution, Mahle is the only solution...

Maybe I should try to source a set of Used Nikasil Mahle's as Harry suggests...

Ah-hah! How to discover that water does not compress! Shame. Good luck with your rebuild.

Will I have clearance issues with the GT2 108 with stock Mahle 9.3:1 pistons?

I don't want to sound disrespectful but the new JE pistons are awesome. They have not been around long enough for anyone to put 50,000 miles on them so that point is mute. I have many, many favorable experiences with JE in other applications, some of which over stress the design much further than even the most radical NA flat six. Steve knows his stuff, that's for sure, but I don't think he's considering the new design JE.

Lindy

I would check out that last link to used P&C's. If clearing the DC40 cam is a problem, you can opt for camgrinder to grind you the DC24 which is one step down from DC40 but with a 113 LSA.

Update. Spoke to John (camgrinder). My GT2-108 are already being worked on. Paid for.

he wants 9.5:1 or 9.8:1 compression to get max torque to come on sooner and have the most power at 2500-6000 RPM's... The stock Mahle's are going to impact performance in his opinion.

he also said that stock Mahle's will need to have the pockets cut to use them. This would lower compression further... I dont want to get into all that...

So Im back to Replated KS with JE's. If they last 60k miles, that is 12 years at my current mileage. Hopefully you are right Lindy. Time will tell.

Thanks all for your support and opinions.

Steve W knows about the new design ones. I also discussed many options and went with Mahles when using Mahle cylinders. With nickies etc I may have gone the JE route. Many opinions on this and when I decided that I want this engine to last a long long time my decision was easy. That said, I also know another very good engine builder that wanted me to use JE's. Different strokes for different folks etc.

Its really a mute point because the camgrinder (john daugherty - who is one of the industry best) recommended a GT2-108 cam that will not work with the Mahle's unless the pockets are cut, impacting their price and static compression... JE's will work without any modifications and have higher static compression (9.3:1 vs 9.5:1).

so now I have 3 choices. I am working with Don at EBS.
1. Replate my KS Cylinders (Millenium Plating) and keep at 95 mm. 9.5:1.
2. Replate a set of 3.2 Cylinders and increase to 98 mm. 9.5:1 3.2 SS. This will be more $$ because I dont have 3.2 cores.
3. Wait a few extra months to save some extra money and go with Nickies. probably do 98 mm 3.2 SS if I went this route.

Plating with #1 or #2 is lifetime warranty... and half the price of #3.

What I cant really get an answer on is whether there is any value add to spending 2k more on the Nickies. Its a street car. Rev limited at 6500 rpms. Never goes past 8'oclock on the temp guage.. So unless its just to look nice, doubt they are worth the extra money for my car. So It will probably be opt 1 or 2 for me unless someone can tell me why i would want to spend the extra money.

While I appreciate and respect Steve W 's feedback... he is a great guy and a wealth of knowledge... his recommendations would 1. not allow me to use the Cam that John recommended without major piston modifications and 2. would lead me to a rebuild that costs more than the car is worth.. I did use him for the head work so they are matched to my ITB's for optimal flow and performance. I am sure all his work is second to none. For the rest of my build plans, I need to 1. balance his very expensive recommendations against my max budget (about 10k), and 2. find a non-stock Mahle PC solution that will work with my cam choice. Those are the parameters I need to live within.