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Flywheel - axle options for a 67 ?

hi there, I am putting together a 2 liter for my 911R-copy, the engine is an alu engine from 67 mated to a 901 with fluegplatz gears.

I do have a complete flywheel from a 77 2.7 engine we took apart. Initially it looks that it could do the job (mockup) but the flywheel surface is worn, not cracked but worn. Disc is not much used and it does look like I could reuse everything.

The car is really lightweight, hope to hit 820 kilos dry, fiberglass fenders, doors, hood and lid, lightweight interior, lexan all but windscreen, plastic door handles and so on..

I am playing with the idea of installing a lightweight aftermarket flywheel, the engine was rebuilt years ago but is tight and likes to rev, supposed to have S cams and 2.2 cylinders. Was pulling very good in my 70S but I found a correct engine for that one and the 67 engine went out a couple years ago.

Anyone have a suggestion for a provider of flywheel / clutch package for this configuration? Car will be tracked occasionally but mostly concerned about getting some mileage out of the clutch.

I am in need of axles as well, was thinking about the EMPI axles from our host, but perhaps there are better options out there?
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:05 PM
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teveo,

The difficulty is that your 901 transmission is configured for the 215 mm push-type clutch.
The important feature is the location of the pivot for the clutch arm.
This location will not work with the arm for the 225 mm pull-type clutch.
Several have welded a new boss in the transmission case with varying degrees of success.

The ‘as original’ solution is the 906 flywheel and suitable light-weight disc and pressure plate.
There are excellent reproduction 906 flywheels available.
Be sure to use a street-type spring-center disc.
These are 215 mm push-type and work very well with a 2.0 (I race with this clutch using a 2.6R engine).

If you feel you must use the 225 mm push-type clutch, changing the transmission to a type 911/01 5-speed is a good solution.
The same ‘airport gears’ fit.
This has the added advantage of using the larger (911/914/915/930) differential and readily available LSD.

Be careful to not mix-‘n-match clutch parts here.
The 2.2 and later flywheel uses a thinner 6-hole ‘flywheel washer’.
The 2.2 and later uses six shorter XZN flywheel bolts.


Use the standard SWB Lobro axle assemblies.
They are the correct part and are long lived.

Best,
Grady
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:18 PM
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Thanks Grady, I understand, the 77 did of course have 915 box and fork with axle and the action is inverted. It looked fine on the table though

Found a pic here, this one is pull and release then (?)
[IMG]http://www.***********.com/porsche-parts/911-84-86/main/301-05.jpg[/IMG]

Whereas my 1967 902/1 has more or less this setup.

from the thread..
911/01 and 901/13 Clutch Forks

The engine and box, ready for a cleanup. Its a 67 box and 67 blank case engine for a 1968 SWB. We are striving for a complete non-matching numbers car here....




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Old 03-09-2011, 11:08 PM
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teveo,
Grady has asked me some interesting questions, and I need more info from you.
On the engine case, can you find the other date code on the other half of the case please.
If you cannot get a photo, please count the dots around the date. Also, what are the casting part #'s on the side of the case 101.xx & 102.xx?

On the transmission, what is the serial #? It looks 238xxx; that is a late one of the series.

Thanks, Dave
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Old 03-10-2011, 07:43 AM
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teveo,

Good searching, you found a good thread on this subject.

Whereas my 1967 902/1 has more or less this setup.


Yes, your ’67 should be close.
This image is for ’68-’69.
The only differences are to the arm where the position of the retainer is different and
in ’68 the bearing is updated to a ‘constant-contact’ type with the addition of the two
black plastic spacers (#9 above).
You will probably only find this release (TO) bearing available and it needs the two spacers.




You seem to have a 215 mm clutch/flywheel assembly (red arrow).
What is the thickness of the flywheel washer (green arrow)?
Make sure it is correct for the 215 mm flywheel. Same with the new XZN bolts.

I also see an 80/83 mm fan pulley half (violet arrow).
Do you have the matching 245 mm fan?
That combined with your existing crank pulley and a unique belt will improve the engine cooling.
This will be important unless you install a front cooler on the 912.





Per your “ We are striving for a complete non-matching numbers car here....
Your 902/1 238130 casting date 10/67 may (or may not) still have the non-reinforced input shaft.
You need to measure the thread diameter at the castle nut (12 mm = non-reinforced, 14 mm = reinforced).

The good news is that this transmission has the ‘regular’ differential.
There is no ‘simplified differential’ issue.



Your ‘no-number’ aluminum engine (below) has the temperature sender from the ’71 (120-300F).
What are the Porsche and VDO numbers on that sender?
You will want to change to the ’65-’68 (140-280F) version.







You said the engine has 2.2S P&Cs, hopefully it has 2.2 heads and not modified 2.0 heads (head gaskets are dramatically different).
The 2.2 and later heads are a ‘shallower’ design and better power at higher compression.
What are the numbers and casting dates on the heads?
I see an 11-bolt cam housing.


I notice a fuel flow diagram in use.
Here is a useful link:
Braided Fuel Hose for a 72T MFI
Search on "circulating fuel" for more.
You will want a circulating fuel system with the pump (and more?) mounted on the front suspension cross member.


Please, more images.

Best,
Grady
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Old 03-10-2011, 07:56 AM
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Hi and thanks,

I'll get some pix when engine is in the stand for cleanup, right now it is kind of hard to reach for those pix. I do have some of the numbers though.

Engine cast # 901.101.102.0R
Cam housing # 901.105.111.0R
Gerbox serial is # 238130

Heads ... "through the shroud", all heads are 11-73 and with K1819 markings. 2.4 or 2.7 heads?

Right side case has 5 or 6 dots, whereas left hand has 6 dots, they are matched though, same number stamped on top of case halves.

The flywheel washer is 3 mm, the flywheels inner diameter was 225 mm, suppose I still have to get the right flywheel/clutch.

The MFI diagram was just resting on the bench, I will use double bendix pumps in the car. I think I have a complete 245mm fan setup from 81SC, using that pulley was a good idea, I never thought about that but it would spin faster then.


Engine with fan assembly...


Here's a thread from when we identified the engine ...
Help to identify my engine.
The downside are the cylinders, the engine goes into the car this year but the coming winter I want to change P/C's and twin plug it, my goal is to make a 911R engine-look-alike.
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Last edited by teveo; 03-11-2011 at 02:54 AM..
Old 03-11-2011, 02:19 AM
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teveo,

Sorry you didn’t get more response on Help to identify my engine.
Frisinger as a "Historic racing part"’ is comical as almost every 911 from ’68 to ’77 used that cover.
There must be thousands of those ‘never-fail’ parts setting around.


To review:
No engine number, type number or build number
Case casting dates: left 6/67, right 5 or 6/67 (June 1967).
Case casting numbers: left , right 901.101.102.0R
Parting numbers 971
11/73 head dates, (2.7 CIS?)
iron cylinders, (84 mm 2.2-2.4T?)

Mag chain covers and housings (original or update?)
Large cam oil fitting (original or update?).
Mag lay-shaft cover (indicating lay-shaft bearing shells mod?)
These questions are important to determine when Porsche changed (undocumented) the case to accept the later chain housings.


Please post some images of your clutch(s).
It still isn’t clear to me what you have.


I think I have a complete 245mm fan setup from 81SC, using that pulley was a good idea, I never thought about that but it would spin faster then.
Yes, that ’81 911SC fan will turn faster than your existing (red) fan.
You can turn it even faster (two steps) by using your ’81 911SC crank pulley and
faster yet using a crank pulley from a ’78-’79 911SC (and more).
While it is important to have these fan options, you should plan from the start the car with a front oil cooler.


This is an interesting ‘collage’ engine built from lots of different-year parts.
I have concerns seeing the iron cylinders.
It would be unusual for the engine to have 2.2S pistons and not Biral cylinders.
My concern is that it has the heavy cast 2.2T pistons in an engine you intend to race and turn some serious rpm.
Damaging (or worse) that crankcase is not something you should risk.

I recommend you properly go through the engine.
Not only may this save an expensive ‘oops’, but it will let you tailor the performance to your use.
You know how well it has performed in your ’71.
It can only get better.

Something to consider:
An original ’67 no-number case is VERY valuable.
You might consider selling it for ‘big bucks’ and using another case for the track.



Transmission:
Number 238130
Type 902/1
Casting date 10/67 (10th week 1967)
All of the gears should have dates, matching numbers and manufacturer’s mark.
What are these numbers?
What is the VIN of the 912 this came from?
What is the chassis build number (next to radio opening)?


"I will use double bendix pumps in the car."
Double pumps are probably not necessary.
Since you will be installing a safety fuel cell, part of that should be a circulating fuel system.
This maintains cool fuel at the carburetor fuel intakes, returning unused fuel to the tank.

Since your chassis only has a single fuel pipe in the tunnel, you can use the opportunity to install two new pipes with proper size and screw-type fittings.
Critical is to use continuous pipes with no fittings in the cockpit.


All of this is in the context of building the chassis into a safe, reliable and competitive track car.
Use the opportunity in rust repair to build a very good chassis.
You have the advantage over the 1967 Porsche engineers of more than 40 years of experience and advances in technology.
There has been a lot of Pelican discussion of roll cage design and integrating all the systems.
In addition to the “safe, reliable and competitive” you can add ease-of-use, repair-ability and more.

One philosophy I espouse is: “If it isn’t there, doesn’t weigh anything, didn’t cost anything, can’t break, and isn’t in the way.”
The ‘KISS’ principle.

You have some of the word’s best chassis builders, engine builders and race experience available here on Pelican.
Use them for your race benefit.

Best,
Grady
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Old 03-11-2011, 07:10 AM
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Okay, so the case is a very early "0R" version (I assume the other case half is 901.101.101.0R).
This came out at about build 10,000, very early in the 1968 model year production.
Any documentation on the case is useful.
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Old 03-11-2011, 09:01 AM
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Took some time to get the engine in the stand, here are some more pix.
Heads from 69 I suppose? A big number 2, 69 and month 6.








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Old 04-08-2011, 08:45 AM
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Clutch/flywheel

Is this a street only, or a mix of track and street, JB Racing makes a single disc 7 1/4 " race style clutch setup for 6 bolt F/W and a 901 box with a throwout bearing adaptor that uses the stock clutch fork and cable. the disc option is either an organic or metalic. the F/W is aluminum and weighs about 6 #. Take a look at the web site JBRacing.com

Mike Bruns
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Old 04-08-2011, 09:02 PM
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Just to add, the modern temp sender (if you are not doing concours) has a much wider resistance range and is more accurate than the old (and very expensive) temp sender.
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Old 04-09-2011, 08:40 AM
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Back to the engine, spent some time with my carrera and got that car sorted out. No charge story. it has taken me 18 months from I installed the new RS engine and finally I can see the light in the end of the tunnel and not just the charge lamp. (I did also reposition the fuel pump from rear to front and finishing both bumpers, .. there has of course also been two times five month winters since engine got in)

The 68 R clone, this engine will not be maxed out, I hope to get some 175-180HP and the car will not do much track racing but hopefully longer events.
I hope to drive the 911 or a 57 356 "GT" in 2012 Monte Historic.

If I find some spare time end of week I will start tearing down the engine and see what cams and heads in there. The cam housing was from 69, the heads look to be from 73 and the cast irons.. who would know.

I am now leaning on installing new cylinders, the cast irons must retire. There are a few options available and I like the nickies, any recommendations apart from LN's nickies?
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Old 04-18-2011, 02:59 AM
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There has been a pause with this project, finally some vacation and time to get a few steps ahead. I got my seats from GTS last week and got inspired to push forward.


I was missing the crossbar for transmission, found and bought one on ebay but it does of course not fit my car... anyone know what this crossbar is for?

PORSCHE EARLY SWB LWB 901 TRANSMISSION MOUNT GEARBOX | eBay
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Old 08-04-2011, 01:09 PM
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I just opened the gearbox and changed all seals, the nose piece went off as well. I did not go further into the gearbox. Not much slack anywhere and the internal and diff bearings seemed fine. Decided not to change any bearings. The first gear synchro still has plenty life in it.

Was just going to put the box into the car for "shakedown" this season and do a rebuild next winter, engine will also come apart next winter with new P/C's and possibly a top end job.

The only matter I forgot was to check the preload on the stretch bolts,.. what next? Do I need to get/make the preload tool or is there a "ballpark" number available?
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Milestone reached..







Todo list for the winter:
-tune the engine
-connect axles
-fill up the fluids
-install a MK 911R exhaust

I did install tarett front and rear swaybar/droplinks but am considering using originals instead, a little too much bling maybe.
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Here we are 4 years later down the road, Grady long time gone but much of his knowledge is still with us.

Maybe it is time to finish this car now, I just put her on the lift trying to get her on the road this coming spring.



Right now I am a little stuck with hardware for drive axles, this being a 1968 911 would it be correct to use the 8x45 mm or 8x48 mm bolts? I am using a set of EMPI axles for now but will try to get better axles when the car is running and "shakedown" is completed. The axles flange will comsume about 34 mm of the bolt.

Did the 1968 have tabs for the bolts (#21, one tab for two bolts) eg 3 tabs on each side?
I have attached a figure of the axle from the parts book but read both that they have and they do not have these tabs? I also read that the SWB did not use gaskets but I may squeeze a minimal amount of blue hylomar on them.





I am going to use the original oil system at first but modify the 993 oil tank I have and use it a little later on. The 993 tank fit nicely and I will weld or bolt on tabs to secure the tank in position.




I have attached the circulation diagram that is correct with my tank and also an idea about how I should modify the tank. I am not using a front cooler, not needed over here.

Would it be correct to assume that I should plug everything but the return, feed, breather and small ventilation (at top)?
I will have filler neck welded/brazed in top of the tank so that I can use the hole in the fender.



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As far as the axles go, I would use the three tabs if you can find them. The original WS manual does not show them for the '68, as far as I can tell.

Here is a pic with some axle info. The CVs that used the gaskets have a recess around the outer perimeter to accommodate the gasket. My car has the gaskets and I don't think they do much good.

BTW, can't wait to see your oil tank installed.
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