Clackety clackety clackety clack

[evan9eleven]

I thought of another question. Once I get the valve cover off, if I find that a rocker shaft has backed out, I suppose its mandatory to disassemble that rocker assembly and check for damage? And is it a major PITA to tap the shaft out with the engine in the car?

[afterburn 549]

You are making a much bigger deal here then necessary. You are allowed...But you have not arrived at the problem so lets find that 1st.
I guessed maybe A rocker shaft...It would make one hell of a racket if one side was loose
that said i have removed all mine in the car one time to install the RSR "O" rings. Was no problem.
the biggest deal if it is the rocker shaft, is the rocker housing broke?

[evan9eleven]

Originally Posted by afterburn 549

You are making a much bigger deal here then necessary. You are allowed...But you have not arrived at the problem so lets find that 1st.
I guessed maybe A rocker shaft...It would make one hell of a racket if one side was loose
that said i have removed all mine in the car one time to install the RSR "O" rings. Was no problem.
the biggest deal if it is the rocker shaft, is the rocker housing broke?

Thanks for suffering through my noob questions. Just hoping to be prepared... ordered Wayne's and Bruce's books along with valve cover gaskets from our host yesterday... expre$$ shipping takes a week to me so you can see why I'm trying to think ahead. Plus you guys stateside are 6-10 timezones away...

[afterburn 549]

I was not flaming you. Just saying find the problem and we all try to be a brain trust to the fix
If it is a rocker shaft, ask john walker what he recommends the torq to be.
After my rebuild I found several loose and decided to go the "O" ring seal route. I torqed to Jn specs expecting something to break...all lived happily ever after.
John owns a very honest shop seattle area. one experienced smart feller. If he says do it just do it.

[snbush67]

For reference, this is a good thread for rocker shaft, with some good pictures and the torque setting recommendation by Mr Walker.

Rocker arm shaft installation?

[afterburn 549]

There it is 20 ft LBS !
It does sound scary. but it works !

[evan9eleven]

I know you weren't flaming me, its all good! :-)

Now I just need to wait for a free weekend to get in there... I'll report back of course!

[evan9eleven]

For reference, this is a good thread for rocker shaft, with some good pictures and the torque setting recommendation by Mr Walker.



Rocker arm shaft installation?

Awesome, thanks!

[DSPTurtle]

I'm a big fan of the turbokraft rocker shaft locks. Especially after putting the orings in.
Lets still hope it's just a really messed up rocker adjustment.

[evan9eleven]

UPDATE: I finally got time to dig into this.

Drained oil and removed upper and lower rocker covers on the passenger side of the engine. Oil has run almost a year/2000 miles, looks clean. Magnetic drain plugs in both tank and sump had no visible debris, wiping them clean made the paper towel grey, but nothing worse then that. Nothing chunky in the oil. Considered removing the sump plate but forgot to order a gasket so that has to wait.

All 6 rocker shafts on this side are in place as they should be, and do not leak oil. No broken studs or anything that seems out of place.

I checked the valve adjustment on both intake and exhaust for cylinders 4 and 5 with those each set at TDC and they seem ok (.004" feeler just fits.) This was about 5 hours after running the engine warm before draining the oil, so I will check again tomorrow when everything is good and cold.

The only thing that I could find that concerned me was the side to side play in the rockers themselves. When the rockers are at the camshaft backside and therefore not in contact with the cam (so free to move) there is a fair amount of play, probably 1mm side to side, maybe more. They clack quite a bit when pushed back and forth. Not sure if this tells you guys anything, since side to side isn't the normal movement of a rocker.

All advice appreciated before I get back to this tomorrow!

[Alan L]

They are allowed a bit of sideways movement. Not an issue. Check the rocker shafts are all symmetrically located - ie none are moving out of their housings - while you are in there. (You will see they have a slightly asymmetric location in the housings - near flush on one end and some room (5mm?)to spare on the other). It is just something to check - esp on a fresh engine - sometimes they do move and you want to catch them early, if possible.
Broken valve springs are hard to spot - but since you have it open now. Usually the inner spring breaks (if any break). With a good light, peek into the coils and see if anything looks odd - you will often be looking for a slightly odd line on one of the coils. But the sure way to test is get them to the unloaded position and lever down on the top of the valve. I can't quite remember how I did this last time - you may need to bolt something down on a cover plate stud or something and lever with a screwdriver. Whatever works, but don't lever against any machined surfaces. If a spring is broken you will definitely feel the difference. You are just levering til it moves - just til the valve begins to open. No need to go any further. If nothing obvious arrives, another thing to try is to look for slight exhaust/head leak. Best way is get under car while idling and move your hand around looking for some hot gas. A small leak at the head or your exhaust gas reticulation plugs can make a serious sounding noise. If at the head you may find a bit of weepage at the cylinder interface. (You can have a look now while you have the car jacked up for oil drain- you are looking for any signs of gas burn/weepage at the exhaust gasket/headers, EGR plugs and cylinder interface)
Check the clearance on #6 valves while you are at it.
Alan

[evan9eleven]

OK, back to it today, fully cold engine. Rechecked valve clearances on 4-5-6 for both the intake and exhaust and could just barely fit the .004" feeler. So I left the adjustments alone for now. As mentioned in my post above the rocker shafts are all perfectly in place and do not leak oil. Everything looks pristine under there though this side is where I hear the clack.

Nothing visibly wrong with the valve springs either and they are nearly impossible to compress.

I also pulled the sump plate and screen and it was clean. Found a 1mm X 4mm piece of something that looks like a piece of gasket material, and a tiny 1mm piece of something amber colored and brittle. Hard to call these major debris, I was almost hoping to find half a chain ramp in there so I wouldn't still have a mystery on my hands.

Fudge. Only I didn't say fudge.

[afterburn 549]

I think your have to pull the timing chain covers as i am sure it is chain ramp material.

[Alan L]

Can you post a pic of the 1x4mm bit - may be able to tell if chain ramp or gasket material.
Alan

[evan9eleven]

Originally Posted by afterburn 549

I think your have to pull the timing chain covers as i am sure it is chain ramp material.

Originally Posted by Alan L

Can you post a pic of the 1x4mm bit - may be able to tell if chain ramp or gasket material.
Alan

I can take a pic tomorrow. Its fibrous like paper, thus my reference to gasket material. The other piece could be ramp plastic I suppose. It stinks if these can go to pieces so quickly after a rebuild with new chains and ramps. Tensioner maybe?

It bears mentioning that the noise is distinctly metallic in nature, like tapping a socket extension against the case, but not so sharp a sound. I was really betting on the valve train being the culprit. Of course, I haven't opened side 1-3 but the noise doesn't seem to be coming from there. Was strongest from the rocker cover stud at #4 using the screwdriver-ear test and there was nothing to see under there. Screwdriver-ear test on the chain covers revealed no clack, just chain noise.

If I have to pull the chain covers can it be done without a partial drop, or is that the best way? I have a lift.

[Alan L]

You can remove the chain covers without dropping the engine - but you have to remove exhaust, rear bumper etc and lower the rear of the engine a bit (on the engine mount bolts).
A pic might help but I suspect you have gasket material.
I wonder if a chain tensioner has failed (as distinct from the ramp). These are spring loaded (and serviceable). I am assuming yours have not been upgraded to the hydraulic ones. If they were you would have small steel lines exiting from your chain covers to the top edge of your engine case. If the tensioner fails you will get excessive chain slap, but no broken parts (at least initially).
Alan

[Alan L]

Having just read your post again, it seems not to be coming from the chain covers, which leaves us with internals again. But before you did anything else I would close up the valve covers and run it again while underneath - looking for an exhaust type leak. They can sound like a clack too. I recall now, to check the valve springs I ended up bending a piece of flat steel to lever against the top of the stems. You may like to try that before closing it up again.
Alan

[Alan L]

Right, having listened to the noise - and I can hear it, I had something similar once in my SC after I rebuilt it. I suggest checking for no broken springs then close it up. Run the engine then get underneath while going. Make sure no exhaust leaks anywhere, then with your screwdriver place it on the cylinder and heads of #s 4-6. I am sure you will isolate it to one of those. You may even be able to feel it with your fingers (briefly). This will tell you whether it is in the chain case, or specifically where it is.
Alan

[evan9eleven]

Thanks Alan.

I have the Carrera chain tensioners. I have previosly felt for exhaust leaks also and found none. With the screwdriver test the clack is a distinct mechanical and metallic sound. I can't imagine that an exhaust leak would sound like that through a screwdriver handle?

I tried compressing several springs today and could barely get them to budge with respective cylinders at TDC. But these are really difficult to get to and see. No debris in the rocker covers either.

[afterburn 549]

Just pull the chain covers and take a look.
simple.
I am sure that is where your problem is.