Another Rookie 3.0L rebuild
 

Rebuilding came up in my conversations a lot sooner than I expected. I recently bought a '72 911T coupe with ~20k-miles on a 3.0L built by a prior owner. My hope was to drive and enjoy for years before it needed anything major. But a persistent oil leak turned out not to be an oil line as suspected, rather a case crack caused by use of an incorrect case fitting for that line, see my prior thread on this for the gritty details. I decided to bite the bullet, get a new case, and move the motor into it. I probably could have just left it and drove it with the leak, but where is the fun in that? :cool:

So begins my own build thread... Amstaff, I've been following yours - it has been well-timed, and an inspiration for me. Hope you don't mind me borrowing your title. I have been in awe of some of the builds I've read about in this forum - funny how staring a project like this in the face changes the way you look at the world.

Initially I considered paying to have someone else do it, but having really just bought the car, it was hard to feel flush with cash for this purpose. Plus, I've always wanted to build a motor, so it just seemed like the planets were aligned. Why not? Plus, by doing it myself, it would be easier to rationalize improvements and upgrades along the way, right? RIGHT? Work with me here.

I found out about the leak situation just as I had removed the interior from my '86 targa to install new carpet, then my DD and house both decided they needed some love, and the weather turned hot here in Austin. So, my progress has not exactly been speedy. But, progress IS being made. Motor is out and on a stand, and I have a fresh case on standby:

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This being my first build, I am more than a little intimidated, but I am excited about the project. I've been reading this forum, Wayne's book, Bruce's course notes, and getting plenty of egging-on from local Pelicans and my new guru, jpnovak.

The motor has less than 30k miles since it was built, so I am hopeful that most if not all of the major components will be re-usable, and I can mostly just swap everything over to the new case. Based on the oil line problem, though, I feel can't take that for granted, that the prior build should be considered suspect. I simply have to be ready to find other issues, shortcuts, and problems. I try to avoid that sense of dread that I'll open it up and find that the cylinders are scored, the crank journals shot, and the thing was just about to blow up. :eek:

So beyond the basic disassembly/assembly, I've been considering some upgrades. Based on the notes that came with the car from the PO, it has Web Cam 20/21 cams. Not sure yet if I will stick with these. The car came to me with decent-running Webers, but I have pretty much decided that an update to EFI is going to happen. Jamie opened my eyes to the idea of having a modern, tuneable EFI system in a stealth-retro-nearly-correct-looking MFI package. So I have been sourcing the components I'll need to go down this path.

I am hoping to finish up my targa interior project this weekend. Then I will clean and organize my work space so I can approach the teardown with, um, discipline and clarity of purpose appropriate to the task. I expect I will be able to give this 10-15 hours/week. When you figure in waiting for parts, beginner confusion, doing things over several times, I have hopes that I can get through this in a few months - start the timer now... :)

I kind of see this motor with its failure due to an incorrect oil line fitting as a poster child for first-time builder blunders - exactly the kind of mistake I hope to avoid! Thanks in advance for the help and advice I know I will need along the way.

Subscribed! Thanks for taking this on... Been following a few 3.0'builds and I'm wrestling with the thought of doing my own or saving for a professional. DIY = having some cash for PMO upgrade!

Good luck John, I am glad my "rookie rebuild" inspired you to do your own. Believe me, it is such a good feeling when you do it yourself. The best advise I can give you is be patient.

Subscribed!

Ok, finally time for an update. Took me a few days longer to finish the Targa interior than I thought, and then it was getting the area somewhat cleaned up and organized. Finally got all that done, and started the disassembly.

So far, things have progressed smoothly. Over the last couple of days, I got all of the fiddly bits off - intake manifolds, fan, shroud, alternator, distributor, thermostat, valve covers. The only difficulty I had was with the fan pulley bolt, it did not want to budge, had to get out the impact, it was laughing at the little holder from the tool kit. Glad I never had occasion to try that on the side of the road.

Yesterday, I got as far as getting the chain covers off, but now I need to borrow some tools, I just don't seem to have anything to grab those 46mm cam nuts. It seemed like a good place to stop, so I pushed the whole thing back into the corner and went to watch some football.

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Rookie corner - here are some ideas that I am pretty excited about, and have helped removed a lot of my anxiety about keeping things organized. All of the stuff I have removed has gone onto my jpnovak motor shelf (tm) starting from the bottom. As I build up the new motor, the stuff just goes back on in reverse order.

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Following a similar strategy for fasteners - rather than bagging, I am using another of Jamie's tricks - putting all the nuts, bolts, and small parts, in order of removal, into a plastic organizer that gets labeled as I go:

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For me, this is huge. I worked on another (non-Porsche) motor project recently with a friend, doing the standard bag-and-tag, and we ended up with a mess of baggies that just would not keep themselves organized. I am liking this idea a lot - since the bin fills in order of removal, everything is in order, and super-easy to reverse the process for the build. Simple to go through and clean or order new. I expect I will end up with 2-3 of these bins for the entire motor.

That's it for today, I am feeling pretty good about my progress so far. But then, this is the easy stuff...

I really like your plastic nut & bolt organizer. You will be very thankful you spent the time and energy to do that. Good luck with your build.

John - subscribed and good on ya, man. I really like your small parts box/order of removal idea.

Redoing these engines is getting horribly expensive, at least here in the NE. The parts alone are killer and doing it yourself at least you know what was done instead the generic "rebuilt", whatever that means. I am going to "man up" on the next one - these cars are so well documented and discussed/photo'd, I am running out of excuses not to do it myself.

But - John, what stand/mount set up are you using here?
Rob

Hey Rob, thanks - can't take credit for the parts bin idea, but it is a great one.

My stand setup is the adapter ring sold by our host (which I borrowed) mated to the standard yoke that came with the engine stand I got off craigslist. The clutch and flywheel are already off the motor. The adapter ring is threaded to accept four bolts to mount it to the arms of the standard yoke, and holes for the case studs on the motor. I used stacks of nuts (I think 1/2") as spacers over the case studs to fix the adapter ring to the case.

I also have a P201 yoke that I found at a good price on ebay after I had already gotten started (you can see it sitting on the floor in one of my earlier posts), which I will put on the new case for re-assembly. It's a little more elegant, and I hope allow me enough access to mount the clutch and flywheel when that time comes. But other than access to the flywheel/clutch area, this setup works just fine, and if I were to do it over again, would not have bothered with the P201.


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Good luck with your build,fingers crossed you have Mahle cylinders.

Thanks - how can I tell whether they are Mahle? Is there a logo or stamping that will tell me?

By the way, my motor has less than 30k since it was built. It was running fine before teardown, I am moving it into a new case due to a case crack and bad oil leak. Unless I discover issues, my plan is to just leave everything as is, and move it on over - bearings, crank, rods, cylinders, pistons, rings, etc. Naturally, if I find problems, that plan goes out the window. But I am hoping to be able to just leave everything alone.

They should be stamped with Mahle, I had the same problem with my 3.0 po cracked case where oil line goes in from over tightening. Had to buy a new case, will be watching your rebuild. There's alot of discussion what to do as far as Pistons and cylinders when rebuilding hopefully some of the experts will chime in. There are certain procedures for alusil cylinders but I think your ok just might want to find out if you should hone or not hone et.

Dpmulvan - sorry to hear that, sounds like we are in the exact same boat. Both of us presented with a "learning opportunity". :D

I have one of the 46mm cam nuts off, but a bit timid about prying the sprocket off the cam. I've gone after it with my pry bar, but it doesn't seem to want to move. Wayne seems to imply they should just come off easily. I am a little shy about using much force. Should they just slide off pretty easily, or does the cam chain tension prevent that?

You shouldn't have to use a pry bar to get your sprocket off ?

Mine was a bit snug so I had to work it back and forth with a small pry bar (very small) to walk it off the shaft. Just work it one one side and then 180 degrees and pry it again working it until it comes off.

John - can't the case be welded since you have it all apart? Yes it's a casting but doable
Rob

Made some progress over the weekend, I've got the tensioners and cam sprockets off, got to working on getting the woodruff keys out. Got one almost ready to come out, it's wedged in there up against the cam cover plate. It's funny how these seemingly simple tasks can consume so much time when you don't know what you are doing.

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Beginning to feel like I'm solving a puzzle or some kind of sick intelligence test, and how these build projects can straggle on for so long. :p

Use a punch to get the key back into it's correct position in the groove. Then use a small screwdriver on the front edge of the key to push and pry it up and out.

BTW what year is the motor?

Hi Gordon, I don't know what year the motor is, it's a 3.0L that was installed in my '72 when I bought it, built by a prior owner. It must be an early one, as it had the 46mm nuts on the cams. I had tried the screwdriver on the front edge, basically that's how I got here. Not too worried, at least it is moving, but it gave me a laugh to end up with it wedged like this, I thought I was doing so well to get it to move at all after working on it for a while, it's tight.

Can you get a pair of locking pliers on the key?

I remember one of the keys in my car's engine was very similar in not wanting to come out. I remember lightly tapping on the side that was wedged into the cam and the cam cover so the opposite end was raised up out of the cam, then lightly tapping a punch at the bottom of the raised up end down inside the slot of the cam. This allowed the key to raise up and just popped out.
Good luck in your rebuild.

Thanks to all for the suggestions - with the combination of wisdom and the correct tools, I was able to get the keys out without incident. I sprayed on a little Kroil, tapped the wedged one down a bit away from the thrust plate ridge with a punch, then grabbed it with a long-snout vise-grips, and it came right out. The Jedi mindset I now have - the other one took all of 10 seconds to remove. Heads are next! I already have the correct long-shank allen sockets to get after those, so I am brimming with confidence... :)

Had a few spare minutes tonight and got the shims and thrust plates removed and the chain boxes loose - now I'm in high cotton! :D


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John, I see you are making progress working late in the garage...

I am sure the next update will show the heads off.

How does he do it? Jamie, your predictions are uncanny. :cool:

I got the heads and chain boxes off tonight. I have to say, the way those barrel nuts come loose feels a lot like a stud shearing, the first couple were a little unnerving. Fortunately, it wouldn't have mattered, as everything is going onto a new case with new studs anyway. Everything came off without incident. Look Ma, no heads:

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Pressing on!

OOOH. YOu have the fully threaded 993 dilivar lower studs. Those are the good ones.

So, Stock pistons. I can not tell if they are alusil or nikasil from the pictures. Stick a magnet to the cylinder inside wall and see if it just drags (magnetic). This is the way to accurately distinguish between the two. There is quite a bit of carbon as expected with the webers that had questionable jetting.

Next up, pull the cylinder tin and start removing the pistons from the rods. Make sure to keep each piston with its mating cylinder.

Yes - I noticed that the exhaust side studs were different from intake side and were threaded all the way, couldn't recall what kind those were, but I remember reading about the different stud types. I also assume they aren't re-usable? If they are, I am guessing one of those stud extractors should be on my next Pelican order.

So - a magnet just slightly drags in the cylinder bores. Good news or bad news?

You could do that, I bought one for my recently completely rebuild. I bought the MAC Tools stud extractor from the MAC guy that comes to the dealership I work at just for that job. Never could get a good grip on the head studs, I ended up using two nuts, tightening them together as tight as possible and backing out the studs that way. Worked really well and was a simple solution to the problem. Just remember that heat can sometimes be your friend but patience will help you from making a mistake.

Thanks for the heads up on the removal tool, Mike. On consideration, I think I am just going to leave the studs in place and repair the case afterwards, so removing them won't be necessary.

Today I got the cylinders off, and bagged per Wayne's instructions. The only one that gave me trouble was #4, which took some persuasion. The good news is I have Mahle Nikasil cylinders. Everything so far looks to be in great shape.

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Got my first piston out, figured out the trick to removing the little circlips and wrist pin. We'll see how easy things go on reassembly :cool:

I have also started some cleaning, running some stuff through the ultrasonic cleaner I picked up after reading the thread here about them.

My stock pistons are a little crusty, I think my webers were running rich. Other than that, they seem in good shape. Thinking I will ceramicote the crowns before I reinstall.

I feel like I am making good progress, but duly note that I am only on page 39 out of 200 in Wayne's book...

Pistons are all out. Thanks to Jamie for the help on tools and technique. As it happened, I recently picked up one of those $6.99 needle nose pliers assortments from HF, and the one with the long narrow jaws was perfect for grabbing the wrist pin circlips. Only a couple were stubborn, and I did figure out to turn them with a pick to get the ring gap where it made removal possible. One of my wrist pins was a little stubborn - I put a 16mm deep socket against the pin and tapped it out. Fortunately, the pins on #3 and #6, where the front engine plate is in the way, came out easily by pushing with a plastic screwdriver handle. I wrapped the exposed rod ends with shop rags to keep them from clanking against the case openings. Cylinders and pistons are all labeled and bagged, calling it a day.

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About ready to crack this lobster!

Today was the day for the ceremonial case splitting. Like most things, though, a few paragraphs in the book easily expand into many hours of work. The first order of business was the crank pulley, which I did not expect to be a problem. Just fire up the impact wrench and off it comes, right? Well, after banging at it for a while, it was pretty clear my wimpy HF impact wrench on my pancake compressor was not up to the task. So I found the flywheel which had already been removed during the engine drop, mounted it back up, and cobbled up a flywheel lock out of a scrap of metal, similar to what Wayne shows in the book.

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With this setup and my breaker bar, the pulley bolt finally squeaked loose. Removed the flywheel, intermediate cover, acorn nuts and through bolts. I was giddy with anticipation as I took off the perimeter nuts, found all 22 of those, and got the nut inside the chain box opening. Odd, the book says 15mm but mine was 17mm. Beefed up for the 3.0?

Anyway, a few thwacks with my rubber mallet, and it was obvious I had found all the nuts, but those internal studs were tenacious. It was obviously loose, but just not wanting to come apart. I was a little timid about whacking it too hard with my mallet, but with some text message advice and some tenacity of my own, I finally got the o-rings on the internal studs to let go (at least I think that was what was holding it).

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The exposed bearings in the removed case half look to be in good shape, which bodes well for just moving everything into the other case. Calling in jpnovak to have a look though. We will likely pull one of the rods and inspect those bearings for signs of trouble, but I am optimistic after seeing the mains.

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Meanwhile, I have also been parts cleaning - running lots of stuff through my new ultrasonic cleaner - valve covers, chain boxes, etc. it does a pretty good job with water and a cup of Dawn.

My replacement case was shipped to me in a big plastic storage tub, which I am using as its dunk tank. The case halves each spent a few hours soaking in that, followed by brush scrubbing and dry with compressed air. I need to scrub some more with some more powerful solvents, get the mating surfaces clean, make sure the passages and squirters are clear, and so on. I have a lot of parts cleaning and inspection in my immediate future.

In the coming week, after determining the current state of the case internals, I need to get my parts order in for studs, sealant, gaskets, etc., and get a bunch of stuff off to powder-coating. Feeling good about my progress at the moment!

You should feel good about your progress. As far as parts cleaning is concerned, even after you have cleaned everything you think you needed to, there is still probably more cleaning you could have done. After having finished my top end rebuild, I periodically have second guessed my decision to have split the case halves to get into the crank shaft, connecting rods and bearings. Probably isn't going to make a difference in the long run, it's just part of the same sickness we all share.
I totally agree with you about the amount of time things take as compared to the way it's described in Wayne's book. I would start out thinking I could knock a relatively small task out in an hour or less and next thing I know it was three hours later and I still hadn't finished what I set out to do. The problem is while you're in the middle of doing that one item, you come across something else that is directly related to what you are doing and at that moment is the best time to address, clean, fix or replace that secondary item which ends up taking more time because you were not ready with the right tool or part or cleaner to bang out that item.
I actually had a lot of fun and developed a whole new level of understanding of how my car worked which I feel like will help me tremendously when I start going back to the track. The next time I do this I will do a complete rebuild but be much better prepared at what is supposed to be done.
Keep plugging away, you're doing great!

John, looking good! I am also using an ultrasonic cleaner for me 3.0 rebuild. Works great! Good luck with the rebuild.

JP - can you explain to me why the fully threaded studs are "the good ones"? I really don't get it as it would seem to me that those have hundreds more stress risers and therefore more potential to break than would a smooth, partially threaded head stud.

-Confused in Boyertown.....

Doesn't make sense, does it? Maybe because they aren't shanked, there is more material in the studs? Page 84 of Wayne's book shows the different types, and it would seem if Porsche used them on the 993 and they stand up to the stresses that more powerful motor makes, they are "better." I did a fair amount of reading about studs, and there is a surprisingly high religion-to-science ratio in opinions about them. Lots of anecdotal evidence, but not much out there other than statements like "I had xxx studs and one broke", "I have always used yyy studs, and had no trouble", and so on. There are also a lot of variables here - mag cases in the early motors, aluminum later on, and so forth. The thermal expansion properties of delivar seem attractive on paper, but they do seem to show up a lot more frequently in the broken stud stories.

As an aside, I will be using Supertec studs for this build, they should be here any day.

I have Racewares in two of my engines - one on the road again now - but for no other reason than I have never heard anyone having issues with them and that just about every Porsche guy I know of - mostly the old school guys - recommends them.

Again, back to the original issue, all those thread indentations just seem like they would cause problems....

Hi John,
Subscribed as I just discovered a 2.4T motor I purchased is going to need at least a top end rebuild. I have the engine on a stand and down to a long block at this point - not far behind you. I highly suspect I'll be seeking Jamie's advice as well on this one.

Hey Frank - hope your build goes well! Taking the heads apart this weekend if I can find the time.

Hey John!
Subscribed, finally. Sorry I have been kinda wrapped up in non-Porsche related issues since you got started on this interesting project.
You're doing great, keep it up!

Hey Bill, welcome, and thanks for your help yesterday! Bill came by and helped me disassemble the heads, we got the rockers and cams out and cam towers pulled off. There was one rocker shaft bolt that simply. would. not. budge. I have hex key sockets, but there is not enough clearance to get a ratchet head in there, and my little HF hex key was not going to get it done. Thanks to jpnovak for what perhaps should have been the obvious solution - a long extension through the other rocker shaft holes, the entire length of the cam tower - doable once all the other rocker shafts are out. Thankfully, the other ones came out easily.

For the obligatory update photo, here are three of the heads reposing on my motor parts shelf.

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My plan is to leave the bottom end alone, so barring disaster, this officially concludes my disassembly!!! Time to start climbing back up the mountain. Next up, parts cleaning and coating, and heads off to get some love and injector ports.

I just sent my heads off to Craig Garrett (cgarr on this forum) for a going-over, and to drill the MFI ports for my injection conversion. Let me just say that packing the heads for shipment is not a task to be taken lightly. I probably spent more time on this than any other individual chore in my rebuild, except for maybe getting that last rocker shaft out of the cam housing. :D

I also sent my fan and housing off to Mark Motshagen (mark motshagen on this forum) to have my fan reconditioned. It's cosmetic, but the fan is such a focal point of the engine, I decided I wanted it to look nice. I was really impressed by the killer pics I have seen in various threads of the fans that Mark has done.

My Supertec studs, gaskets, and sealant kit are here and waiting - thanks, Henry! Looking forward to putting this thing back together, but it's kind of a waiting game for now.