Are These Ring Considered Seated, or Not Seated?

[VFR750]

Thanks Steve. Just did number 1. Red scotchbrite.

I noticed how good a little bit of oil picked up the dark residue. A good cleaning is next.

I figure I will reuse the existing Goetze rings. They are part of the way to seated. Just clean and reset position.

Then pull the remaining 5 p&c and do them.

[mattC2993]

Obviously hard/chrome rings and hard cylinders are going to take awhile to seat. I think over oiling the pistons/rings/cylinders on assembly can be problematic too. A local engine builder recommended a light coat of WD40 only. It worked for me.

[boosted79]

I'm wondering what other rings besides Goetze or OEM are used? I see the Goetze at $22 and the OEMs at 6x that Perfect Circle is now Mahle so I'm assuming the OEMs are Mahle/Perfect Circle? I see Hastings makes them, Total Seal shows a conventional set for the 3.0L only. Federal Mogul owns the Goetze and also Sealed Power brand I'm pretty sure.

[KTL]

Has anybody tried this magic "snake oil" powder? Quick Seat Piston Ring Assembly Lubricant, by Total Seal, 2 - Aircooled.Net VW PartsGrams

[stormcrow]

You don't need "snake oil" powder if you do the ring assembly and installation correctly. Several factors can have an effect on the final outcome if not done according to specs and procedures when it comes to doing a rebuild.

[VFR750]

It seems doing it the right way doesn't always equal success. Followed all the proper procedures. Ring gaps, piston clearance. Side clearance. Cleaning. Refurbished cylinders. New pistons and rings. Lightly oiled to get piston and rings into the cylinder. Then wipe down the walls to remove excess. Followed the break in routine. Acceleration and engine breaking. And the rings did not seat after. 900 miles.

So engine teardown and rebuild number 2.

And no guarantee the rings will seat.

So why is this not a problem for all modern engines? Subject of a new thread.

[stormcrow]

I wasn't indicating you didn't do the job right. However I think your problem is with the rings rotating on the piston.

This probably caused more oil to pass by the oil rings and cause the compression rings to be wetter then normal resulting in the rings not being able to seat properly. It also caused excessive use of oil.

Make sure your cylinders are cross hatch honed and there are no shiny spots on them. If the rings are gapped properly and the gaps are staggered per the picture, I don't think you will have anymore problems.

I remember when I did my ring replacement my compression was non existence when I first tried to start the engine. But after several tries, it fired right up. If everything goes well, your rings should seat within 500 miles.

I think the excessive oil bypassing the oil rings wouldn't let the rings seat properly.

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by VFR750

So why is this not a problem for all modern engines? Subject of a new thread.

Because this is a VERY complex subject and far more to this than meets the eye.

[VFR750]

No I wasn't taking offense. I appreciate you being concerned if I did.

I was venting a little.

Just checked pistons 2 & 3. Both had rings completely rotated out of position.

Yes that is my goal is to removed any of the existing shiny spots by lightly scuffing the walls.

[VFR750]

Steve.

Couldn't we just sneak a peak behind the curtain?

[cgarr]

Did you assemble the rings with oil or dry?

[Trackrash]

Originally Posted by VFR750

It seems doing it the right way doesn't always equal success. Followed all the proper procedures. Ring gaps, piston clearance. Side clearance. Cleaning. Refurbished cylinders. New pistons and rings. Lightly oiled to get piston and rings into the cylinder. Then wipe down the walls to remove excess. Followed the break in routine. Acceleration and engine breaking. And the rings did not seat after. 900 miles.

So engine teardown and rebuild number 2.

And no guarantee the rings will seat.

So why is this not a problem for all modern engines? Subject of a new thread.

Steve has discussed this in detail in another thread.

[Trackrash]

Originally Posted by stormcrow

I think the excessive oil bypassing the oil rings wouldn't let the rings seat properly.

I had a plugged crankcase vent cause my rings to glaze and not seat on an Austin Healey rebuild I did a number of years ago.

[VFR750]

I wiped the cylinder with a light coat of oil using a kimiwipe. Then wetted the outer edge of the rings to insure they'd slide on the ring compressor. Very little oil overall. No puddles. No thick layer.

Wiped off oil with a fresh kimiwipe. Surface was not bone dry; nothing more than a sheen.

That seemed like I followed Wayne's instructions.

[mytoy]

Originally Posted by VFR750

No I wasn't taking offense. I appreciate you being concerned if I did.

I was venting a little.

Just checked pistons 2 & 3. Both had rings completely rotated out of position.

Yes that is my goal is to removed any of the existing shiny spots by lightly scuffing the walls.

VFR750;

Do you really think that you will find any of your pistons with the rings in the exact orientation as when you assembled them?

This is an impossibility as the rings will rotate within the bore due to the cross hatch. Once they are seated they will stop rotating as much, but you can't stop the rings from rotating during break in.

[porschetub]

Originally Posted by mattC2993

Obviously hard/chrome rings and hard cylinders are going to take awhile to seat. I think over oiling the pistons/rings/cylinders on assembly can be problematic too. A local engine builder recommended a light coat of WD40 only. It worked for me.

Worked with an engineer on a rebuild of a large marine diesel on the vessel I worked on, he has a master tech for that companies engines (B&W Denmark),he used kerosene to lube the rings before placing into the liners.
My company had a large fleet and this process was adopted from then on every rebuild ....problem of slow bedding of rings fixed,in fact one of our vessels was reringed twice in the past and this sorted it for ever from then on.
IMO don't use those rings again,if you rehone they will give issues.

[VFR750]

Interesting idea of the kerosene. Flashes off and allows ring to cut.

I am only deglazing by a light scrub with a scotchbrite. Original cross hatch is still there.

So I that regard I should not expect much more wear to get seated. They aren't even fully worn on the edge. Just the lower edges.

[KTL]

Staggering the ring gaps upon installation is good practice. But once the engine is spun, all bets are off where the gaps will end up. Some of the comments here about the gap orientation imply that we're talking about very large gaps which allow massive amounts of oil to squeeze thru the gap. The ring gaps are not the issue here, as they are very small. It's the interface of the rings with the cylinder walls.

[mytoy]

KTL is spot on.

Because the rings never seated they do not have a proper seat to the cylinder walls and therefore do not wipe the excess oil from the walls and are allowing oil into the combustion chamber. This is contaminating the mixture and also burning the oil with the combustion process therefore your excessive oil consumption.

If you are going to re use your original rings then I would clean the cylinders as Steve has stated and then install with either Kerosene or dry then carry out the high rev back down break in.

Let us know what the out come is. Good luck.

[VFR750]

Should I replace the rings?

I am deglazing the cylinder walls as Steve suggested.

But is the current ring wear pattern a big problem? only the lower edge is polished, is that bad?

Based on the picture attached. Will my current rings work?