3.2 top end, I'm about to bite the bullet
 

At 90k miles my '88 NA Carrera burns oil like crazy. Pull up to a stop sign and the oil smoke cloud wafts over the car - it's embarrassing. The worst cylinder on the leak-down is 4%. The rest are 2 or 3. Oil level is at the minimum on the dipstick. So I'm figuring valve guides.
I've read many threads here and I've got the Bentley manual but I'm still nervous. I've rebuilt a dozen or so 356/912s and easily over 100 air cooled VWs but this 911 has me intimidated. I have questions.
Can I expect to balance the engine/trans on a floor jack to lower it out of the car or should I use something else? Transmission jack?
I need a 911 engine stand head, cam holder tool, and any other special tools that are required. Does anyone rent those? I don't expect to have this engine out ever again.
I thought I saw a "while you're in there" list here somewhere but can't find it now.
From reading threads here I'm thinking:
Rebuild fuel lines
head studs
reseal
have oil cooler tested
injectors cleaned and tested
What else?

When I dropped the engine out of my 964, I used my floor Jack under the trans. Bought a Harbor Freight ATV Jack for under the engine. Used a length of 2x8 across the two ATV Jack pads that the heat exchangers sat on. Nice and stable for a one-man drop. BTW, you only need the cam tool for assembly. An impact gun zips the cam bolts off with no strain on the chains when you dissemble it.

I wish you the best of luck, I too took the plunge by myself. I used my Bentley manual, this forum and YouTube as my guide on how to do things as I've not taken on a project with my car so big. Along the way I would buy the tools that I needed. It helped doing it that way because it allowed me to shop for the tool while still being able to do other things on my engine. The first thing that I would do is figure out what your goals for the rebuild will be. Are you interested in more power, do you want higher torque for stronger acceleration or do you want to address the oil consumption issue and be done with it from there? All these things come into play when you are trying to figure out how you want to approach your rebuild. There were two guys in the Connecticut area that I referred to on more than a few occasions that had rebuild threads. I'm sorry, I cannot remember their names but they were just regular guys doing rebuilds on their own and posting about their experience. Don't be afraid to ask questions , there is a lot of knowledge here and I'm sure you already know that. Best of luck in what ever you end up doing.

Seems like really low leak down numbers for a rebuild. You sure you don't have a significant external oil leak dripping onto your heat exchangers or exhaust causing the smoke?

When I replaced the guides in my 87 there were puddles of oil over the closed intake valves. Suspect that the large oil leakage into the combustion chamber results in over stated compression numbers and reduced leakage in the leak down test. What you think is a "dry" cylinder number is in fact a wet cylinder number.
Also, assuming the valves are seated and rings are in good shape you will get good leak down numbers as the valve guide condition does not come into play for the test.
After replacing the guides my oil usage went from a liter in 300 kms to one every 3,000 kms.
Read everything you can before getting into the job, once underway the "board" will have your back.

I just rebuilt with similar symptoms and leak down numbers....was tired of the smoke cloud catching up to me at a stop light!

The valve guides were the main reason for the rebuild. ....the words "while we are in there" are dangerous. :)

I replaced all valve guides, springs, rods, belts, etc. and while we had the cylinders off went ahead and did new rings.

If you still have a rubber center clutch you might want to drop in a newer sachs unit while it's apart.

Other things to consider:
sound pad
reference mark sensors
fuel lines
cylinder heat temperature sensor
oil pressure sensor
needle bearing/bushing
plugs/rotar/cap/wires

And JB Weld the case corners behind the oil cooler where there is a known porosity area that can leak oil. Check the forum.
You'll also check:
the cam for pitting
rockers and shafts for wear on the pad and the bush

I would not sweat it...You have prior experience!!

Buy the book "How to rebuild and modify Porsche 911 Engines 1965 - 1989" by Wayne Dempsey. Awesome book provides recommendations and a general cost of what to expect..I spent a bunch more since I replaced things that probably did not need..but keep a spreadsheet of what you spent and items...

I just did a full rebuild on my 79 930.(17 months)..and I have had no prior experience to this magnitude, and I made it. Well at this point I have not completed the 500 total miles but all is good so far.

I rented the shop crane and then purchased one used. Specialty tools will be needed. Do include it into your budget. The book explains with pictures as well as the bentley.

You will need an Air/fuel gauge as well as a fuel tester which you might be able to get at the local Autozone for renting..

Just bag, tag and take LOTS OF Photo's, take more photo's and take your time. I wish I had taken the time to take more photo's. Do every angle possible.

Of course this site has gobs of info...I did lots of reading...

Shop around and buy in bulk to save on shipping charges. I did lots of purchases through Pelican but I found many other sites had better prices and sometimes free shipping...

Cheers

A transmission jack and a lift make the engine drop/reinstall a simple operation.

The assembly process was a lot easier than I expected.

There is some place online that rents the tools, but it's easier to buy the tools outright and sell them when you're done for 80 cents on the dollar.

Will be happy to assist in any way. Including cam timing, etc. You don't have to purchase cam tools for one time. Phone anytime. Ted, 408 844 8331

Also can UC clean cooler, pressure test

I'm fairly convinced the problem must be valve guides. I've poured over this forum and the general 911 forum, done the tests and inspections that have been recommended

1. did a leakdown test then had a shop do it to confirm my numbers
2. checked oil level, I drained it and got 9 quarts out of the engine and tank. Put 7 back in, warmed it up and checked the level and added oil until it was at the bottom of the dipstick (that was 2 more quarts as I recall). Then drove it 100 miles or so in case it had been over full and filled the muffler.
3. Checked for external leaks.

Anything else?

I'm not doing a rebuild, just a valve job. I don't want more horsepower, I just want to stop the oil consumption. My goal is to get back to doing DEs and learn to be a better driver. I don't need a lot of horsepower for that (well, maybe if I get really good ... :D)
The cloud of blue smoke wafting around the car is so embarrassing I don't drive it much at all right now.

Wow. Thanks for that.
There has been another delay due to issues with my business, so now it may be a month before I get started. I was going to do it last fall but an hour-long project on my Speedster ended up taking all winter. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/874148-series-unfortunate-events.html

Search out the "triangle of death", easy and inexpensive to deal with while the engine is out.
Also include in new chain ramps, again easy to address while the top end is apart and not expensive.

Many good threads on top end rebuilds in these forums. Dig up the one Rus has. His screen name is rmm and his thread covers just about all of it.

Sounds like just what I'm looking for. Pelican search can't find a username rmm though.

Sorry about that!! r-mm

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/772047-1st-drop-top-end-observations-questions.html

Thanks. I ordered a transmission jack from Harbor Freight this morning. I have to clear some stuff off my schedule and then I'm on it.

Several years ago I did the top-end on my '88 coupe, but had the luxury of a friends lift which made the job much easier. I really enjoyed the experience, being able to work on a genuine Porsche 911 engine, knowing that it was mine, and that the job was going to be done right. Here's my story:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/620769-3-2-top-end-overhaul-success-story.html

Since the rebuild, my engine has run flawlessly with oil consumption being similar to what others have stated. No more "blue hue" behind the car and no more burning oil smell from the heating system. I heartily recommend Anchor Atlantic for cylinder head reconditioning.

Best of luck - take pictures - keep us informed.

^
Thanks Dave. I'll look that up.
I took out the AC compressor and started disconnecting the engine compartment wires this morning. I'm just puttering now because I'll be out of town all next week. When I get back I can get started in earnest.

Here is the link to my 3.2 top end-plus.

If I can do it so can you.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/752699-vermont-first-engine-drop-87-targa.html

Thanks for all the advice so far. It's been very helpful. I finally got started on the car this week. A major faux pas was that the posts I read about removing the transmission referred to 915s and mine is a G-50. They are different beasts, and when I got to the point of disconnecting the shifter I was in a rather desperate situation and had to improvise.

The first thing I did was mount my car on my "lift". I basically drive it up on my trailer, put the ends of the ramps up on jack stands, and roll the car back.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1446885828.jpg

It works pretty well. When I want to raise the car I raise each side 2 inches at a time with a floor jack.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1446885927.jpg

I ordered a Harbor Freight 800lb capacity transmission jack to lower the engine/transmission. The engine and transmission weight 600 lbs together, so an 800 lb jack should be 30% over built. Not. The engine/transmission just squashed this jack. It lowered itself at a rate of about an inch a minute, so I was rushing around trying to figure out how to get the shifter loose, stopping to pump up the jack, rinse, repeat. I couldn't get to the Bentley book to see if there was any advice because I had to keep pumping the jack. I finally figured it out.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1446886488.png

I'm looking at something like this 2000 lb unit. It's going to take a hefty jack with great stability to get this beast back into that little hole.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1446886593.jpg

I was careful to remove this little throttle rod extension. I twisted it off once before and tried to get a new one - $18 for a 6" threaded rod! I braised this one back together and I didn't want to put undue stress on it, so I got it out of the way.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1446886779.jpg

I was struggling to get the engine free of the car. Every time the engine lowered the the car would come down on the suspension. After a few rounds of frantically pumping the jack and rushing around desperately trying to find what was hung up I finally discovered the throttle rod was caught on the CV-joint.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1446887278.jpg

I noticed this small hose that was not connected to anything. It's located above the right front of the engine. So far I haven't found where it plugs in. I'm taking my engine out to fix massive oil burning, so please don't tell me this is the Massive Oil Burning Control Valve vacuum source.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1446887487.jpg


An interesting discovery made with the engine out on the floor. The top bolt that holds the engine/starter/transmission together was in finger tight and the starter was hanging free of the transmission flange by 1/8 inch. This helps confirm my choice to do this myself instead of taking back to the mechanic who used to work on it. He did a clutch in the car (a bad story) so he was the last to have tightened this nut.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1446887733.jpg


Once the engine was free of the car I pushed the car back on the trailer an took it home for storage.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1446887812.jpg


In a few days I'll make some more progress. It's fall planting season now and I've got garlic and blueberries to get into the ground.

One thing u might consider 'while u are in there' are rod bearings and head studs and have the P&C 's reconditioned. Everything but cracking the case

Creative with the trailer.

Head studs are definitely on the agenda. Rod bearings and ARP bolts are on there too.

That little sucker came loose on me as well.

Save the picture for reassembly

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1448502247.jpg

smoking
 

Hi,you did not say how many miles there were.This is is a two hour inspection and repair and if your oil is clean you do not have to change it.Find a good local shop that has the exhaust side tool to remove the springs.They will put a minimum.of 60psi in the spark plug at TDC to keep the valve in place.Remove the old seal and look at the clearance between the guide and valve.Start with #6.You can not use the original brown viton seal as they are flexible and will not sit evenly after the install.Use the white teflon seal because when you lightly tap it on you can feel it seat to the guide.To avoid the oil change,jack up one side do #4,5,6.Then the same to the other side.For rocker removal use a propane torch and warm up the cam tower at each rocker and you can slide the shaft to the side.If motor has not been worked on this works fine.Reassemble and no more smoke.With this method you see the amount of wear between valve and guide.I used to charge $300-350 for this repair.I am retired but there are lots of good techs out there.Good Luck.Fred Apgar

Thanks Fred,
I've done that trick on small block Chevys, but all the other advice I've gotten is that the problem on these 3.2s is caused by the guides themselves. It has 90k miles.
I'm glad I took the engine out if for no other reason than that I found the loose starter. Both barrel nuts were loose and it was flopping around. It could have ruined the new flywheel.
About the flywheel - and why I'm doing this myself.
A couple of years ago a problem developed where the clutch would engage instantly - like an on-off switch - if I sat at a traffic light holding the pedal down. I took it to the recommended local guy, told him I thought there was a hydraulic leak in the clutch system. He installed a new disc, pressure place, TOB, flywheel, and new rear main seal. It did nothing to fix the problem. The car sat until I got some free time, and I replaced the leaking clutch slave cylinder myself and fixed the problem. I did take it to him to do a second opinion on the leak down test. He, too found 2-3% except for #5 which was 4%. He recommended getting a used engine.:eek:
So I'm DYIing it now, even if it means keeping the car off the road until I get around to things.

Made some progress.
I got the intake and exhaust systems off and got the engine stripped down far enough to take it outside and power wash it. I've been spraying the exhaust nuts with Gibbs penetrant for 2 weeks, and all the exhaust nuts came off. No broken studs, though a couple came out of the head. I was rushing to get to this point because winter is about to set in and I don't want to be out power washing in the snow. While I was working on the engine I sent my eager but naive wife out to power wash the transmission.
"Have you ever played with a power washer sweetie?"
"No, but it looks easy."
"Oh yes, easy and FUN!"
By the time she finished she looked like a wet chicken.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1448697993.jpg

Back inside the shop.

#6 exhaust port was caked with wet carbon deposits.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1448698052.jpg

#5 had carbon buildup, but it was dry.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1448698211.jpg

#4 was wet, but didn't have as much carbon

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1448698274.jpg

The ports in the other side of the engine looked dryer and had fewer deposits. This means it's burning oil for sure (like I didn't already know that). It remains to be seen where it's coming from.

Looking really good!!

Send those heads to Craig, cgarr on here and he will rebuilt them and make them new!

Sonax does a great job of cleaning the aluminum.

You're doing great! When I was restoring a 70 mustang, I had my wife use aircraft stripper to strip the headlight buckets. She did a great job. Later that night without thinking, I told her dad "she was the best stripper I ever saw." A double whammy!

You definitely have leaky seals/guides. Once you get it all apart, you will be surprised how simple these engines really are to work on. Are you adding more aggressive cams, compression, etc.?

Thanks Scbrindley. I saw a comprehensive "While You are in there" list here somewhere but I can't find it.

Items I have so far:

fuel lines
send out injectors for cleaning
plugs, rotor, cap, wires
ARP rod bolts
rod bearings
Rings
What am I missing?

Also, is the Porsche muffler supposed to have a small hole in it? I know a lot of other types of mufflers have a weep hole to let water out. I don't know if that's what this little pin hole is or if the muffler is rusting.

Replace lower studs (dilivar) with OE steel
Replace chain ramps
Address the "triangle of death" oil leakage
Add RSR seals to rocker shafts (at least on the exhaust side)
Replace engine compartment sound mat
Clutch, throw out bearing, and pilot bearing

Lower only? This is a question I've been researching all over the boards. Are the top studs on a 3.2 steel and OK to reuse? I only need to replace the lower studs?

Looking at my invoice/build sheet I see my lower dilivar studs were replaced with steel but there isn't a note about replacing or reusing the uppers.

I believe they were reused but I'd have to check with the shop.

Hopefully someone can chime in and provide some clarity.

Also, check your clutch. My car still had the original one and surprisingly it was a rubber center....I thought Porsche stopped using those by '89. We replaced with a new Sachs part.

Thank you. I'm confident the whole clutch issue has been taken care of. Release arm update and everything from the crank seal forward had been replaced (post #28). It would be nice if I can avoid the $100+ cost of upper studs. I am assuming all new nuts and washers would be required.

General consensus is the steel studs don't break and they're fine for engines under ~300 hp. Yes the top studs on your engine are steel.

Another general consensus is the teflon white valve stem seals are too good. Meaning, they seal the oil too good and starve the valve stem of lubrication. The brown (or are they black nowadays?) viton rubber seals are better. A friend recently did his '87 3.2 heads on his ~170K miles engine and the guides were wasted. This was an engine that had previous top end work and the white seals were used.

cgarr/G2 Performance is indeed the man for head work. I and a number of local friends have used him with confidence, as he's a personal friend and part of our local clan of midwestern track/racing group. Craig & his brother Denny are good people.

Not much progress this week. The cam holder tool hasn't arrived so I'm puttering around, cleaning the shop and cleaning parts. I tried to do another leak-down test just for grins. Even though the leakage numbers were low I wanted to hear where the air was leaking. I sprayed some fogging oil in the cylinders and rotated the engine a few times. Unfortunately taking the engine apart and moving it around dislodged a lot of crud in the ports. There were chunks of carbon lodged under the exhaust valves and pieces of gasket under the intakes, so I couldn't determine anything. I tried a couple of cylinders and got 100% leakage. I could see oil bubbling out around the intake valves. It was a waste of time.

Is there a trick to getting the head temperature sender out?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1449256859.jpg

If my memory is correct, the cyl head temp sensor is 14mm hex size. I used a flare nut wrench (like the kind you use on brake lines) to remove the old one and install the new one.

Keep in mind that the old one is garbage since it's only a single wire sensor and known to be faulty. So there's nothing wrong with cutting the wire and using a regular 14mm socket to remove it.

Good luck! Reading your thread is like a trip down memory lane. I went for new rod bearings, rings and honed cylinders in addition to the valve job and a bunch of other while-your-at-its.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/729856-87-drop-top-drop-n-top-end.html
One tip: check your valve timing before you finish dis-assembly. This accomplished two things for me: It gave me a base-line starting point (due to worn chains the timing was a little late) and provided a good confidence-building practice run for when I put the whole thing back together.

Two thousand + miles later she runs great and doesn't burn or leak a drop of oil. Count mine as another success story. I hope yours is too.
GK