HELP - Rookie build, going to 3.5L
 

So, after much deliberation and saving, I have decided to try my hand at converting my 157 000 mile 3.2 Carrera motor to 3.5 N/A motor with mild cams & twin plugs. I am hoping to get close to 280hp at the crank on 93 octane pump gas in Dallas Tx.

It is quite possible I'm going to get chewed up on this forum for what Im about to say, but Im trying to do this as inexpensively as possible.
The reason I am writing about the build, is because I need help on my approach to the project. I am a rookie and I dont know, what I dont know. So I am running blind down this very expensive road. I have been preparing for this for 2 years and feel I might be ready for the plunge. This cost saving theme will be an important one for me as I need to make my budget go as far as possible, without making cheap decisions. A challenge, to be sure.
I plan to pull the motor and tranny. Send the tranny off to be rebuild. Send the engine parts out to be machined and have the heads worked on and then attempt to reassemble and reinstall again myself.

Im posting my progress and my thoughts here, because Im hoping to get some considerate input from friends who have gone down a similar road to prevent me from making avoidable mistakes. And I will need help sourcing the parts and machine work for the build. So if you are willing to be friendly and helpful - I would LOVE your input.

Engine plan

• 3.5 Pistons & Cylinders
• Stronger bolts for conrods and heads
• 20/21 Web cams
• Dual plug heads and distributor
• SW Chip & enlarged throttle body

It all starts around the pistons and cylinders so after some reading and investigation I opted to give the QSC pistons and cylinders a try. I have noted that some regular contributors on our forums use their cylinders, but have opted for JE pistons. I decided to give the QSC P&C's set a try and measured the pistons and cylinders extensively when they arrived.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1443972449.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1443972476.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1443972502.jpg

Pistons
I measured the pistons at the crown where the rings sit in a North-South & East-West measurement and then again at the skirt at the bottom of the pistons at the widest point. All Pistons measured between 99.69 to 99.73 on the upper N-S & E-W measurement.
The skirt measurements had a variance between 99.93 to 99.95.
All in all I think the tolerances are pretty reasonable. I was using a digital micrometer.
Manufacturer claims the compression ratio on factory heads is 11.2:1
I dont believe this to be accurate as much of the reading I have done on this forum shows me that claimed CR's and actual CR's OFTEN seem to vary.
My problem is, I dont know how close that number will be to reality and if it isnt, I dont know if it will get higher or lower in reality. Im also not sure how to measure it without a burette or more sophisticated tools.

Cylinders
I measured the cylinders N-S and E-W at the top and the bottom of the cylinders.
The top measurements ranged between 99.94 to 99.98 and the bottoms measured between 99.95 to 99.99 across all cylinders.

The build will spread out over the next few months and with your help, hopefully conclude in the spring.

This will be great!! First make sure to clean all the gunk you can off the engine and trans before you pull it. Get some Gunk degreaser and go the to local power washer place and blast away. There will still be lots of cleaning to do but the more you get off now, the easier it is later.

Get the sealants from Henry at Supertec.

You must CC the heads. Usually the place that does the heads can do it for you or you can do it yourself quite easily. You MUST know the compression ratio. Craig CGARR on here can do the heads for you at a very reasonable price. Nice work, nice price, fast turn around.

Get Wayne's book, read, read read. Watch some videos on line on how to do certain things until you really understand. These are not small block Chevy engines and take a bit more care.

Cleanliness is super important. Set up a work area and keep it spotless and organized.

Jon, thank you for the initial response. That is the kind of informative direction I am looking for.
I will look up Craig for the head work. I am very much a measure twice cut once, kinda guy.

Allan - sounds like a fun project, I am in the middle of a milder 3.0L build, I will be sticking with stock cylinders and pistons. I will be following this with interest, as I will have a spare case lying around after I finish this build, and a future project might be along similar lines to yours. Good luck!!

John

Make sure you figure out your ignition too. The old Andial splitter for the Motronic system is a rare beast to find. As far as I know, there is no other device like it so your options get more spendy.

We were lucky enough to find an Andial splitter for Allie's project.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/858509-my-daughters-3-4-build.html

good luck with it. don't be afraid to ask questions. am usually here 8 to 5

Ted R

408 844 8331

ps, important to recon big end of rods if using arp bolts

Understatement if ever was one! :) :)

heads
 

craig did my heads twin plu,gged em.replaced some valves ,great guy to deal withhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1444275552.jpg

Thanks guys, I have a message in to Craig at CGarr and we are connecting.

A vehicle comes available for my use, while my porsche is disassembled in about a month. Thats when things get more serious.

This is the current state of my 1985 Carrera.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1444335396.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1444335435.jpg

Hopefully it wasn't motormeister that painted that fan red.

andy

I noticed there are no valve pockets cut into your QSC pistons. I understand CIS pistons do not have the valve pockets because of the SC cam design. With your WEB Cam 20/21 you will have a .485"/.452" valve lift. The QSC piston domes do not look like the stock CIS piston tops. Maybe with the 20/21 duration of 258*/246* it will work out but it just caught my attention.

Mark,
That is exactly the kind of concern I need to hear.
I am suspicious about that potential problem too and dont know how to understand how real that danger is?

Am open to input though. :-)

This is what the JE 3.4 pistons look like:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i1...psr34dnzlo.jpg

The valve pockets are deep.

Allan, When you ordered the pistons did they ask you what cam you were going to use?
The more I look at those pistons I think they just forgot to cut out the valve pockets. The piston dome looks to be about .350" to .450". There would most likely be some valve to piston contact. Also sense your keeping the CIS there seems to be no help from that dome to give the correct CIS flow path.

If I read the OP's first post correctly, he's got an 85 Carrera, so it should be a Motronic engine not CIS. The GSC piston domes aren't that different from the stock Mahle Pistons in my 3.6. Here's one of mine:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1444448216.jpg
Obviously, the valve-piston clearance needs to be measured to be sure that everything is going to work together. But, the general piston shape should work with the Motronic if the compression ratio is okay and the valve-piston clearance is safe.

There are several good threads on rookie rebuilds including mine (has lots of pictures) search out a few and read them completely. Also, read the complete thread on sealants. A lot of controversy on the subject so do your homework.

RedCoupe, Thanks I see the difference, my bad.

Best of luck Allan, I finished mine up over the summer. Probably the most frustratingly rewarding self sufficient thing I've done on my car in the 11 years I've had it.
Tom is correct, there are a lot of good threads in the search file that you can refer to. I didn't do my on the cheap but I did figure out ways to do things myself which allowed me to have choices in the parts that I needed/wanted. The other thing you will find is that you are forever in need of such & such tool. That single thing created more set backs in my rebuild than any other thing.
Your car is very nice looking.

The motor comes out- no going back!
 

There is a good news/bad news reason for the delay since my last post. My 20 y/o daughter just left to go and fulfill a 6 month internship in South Africa. I am going to miss her like crazy.
The upside to that reality is that her 4Runnr is now available and I need another daily driver if Im gonna pull the motor & trans, which is what just happened.

I got help from a friend. He is a God-send, because the job would have taken me twice as long without his help. The extraction job isn't that complicated, just precise and very deliberate and when you are a pair of rookies like we are, it takes 10 hours.

Thank you to DRACO for the ULTRA useful hints and tips as we encountered moments when experience saves you hours!!!

Since it seems to be forum decorum, here is the requisite photograph...
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1446911762.jpg

It is remarkable how much content is packed into that small space in the back of the car.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1446911998.jpg

I found it easier to do the job with the bumper etc removed from the back end of the car.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1446912107.jpg

It also seemed prudent to remove as much of the upper engine attachments, so leave less height on the engine to aid in lowering, so we removed heater fans and airbox etc.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1446912217.jpg

Surprises

1. We had to jack up the rear of the car higher than I thought.
2. How helpful a battery operated torque drill for removing bolts and nuts was.
3. The motor and tranny come out together fine, but seperating the 2 was a pain in the neck.

I separated the clutch cable from the tranny so the unit could come out, but I didn't release the clutch fork by releasing the springs attached here and sliding the long arm down off the pivot, once the short arm was removed. This meant that once the unit was out and all 4 bolts were removed, I couldn't separate the tranny from the motor.
It would easily break free from the engine, but after an inch of travel it would get stuck.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1446912718.jpg

What I learned from DRACO, was that the seal closest to the transmission on the pivot rod had long ago deteriorated and the arm was 'corrosion welded' onto the pivot rod. Lots of lube, some heat, tapping with a hammer and plenty of wiggling and the arm finally broke loose and slid down off the pivot. Once off I could release the clutch fork in the tranny, the unit came loose from the motor.

Next
Now I've got to separate the pieces that are getting shipped all over for work, start cleaning and painting what I can and wait for them all to come back to Papa.

Good luck, Allen! I am in the midst of my rebuild, also. I can't yet boast of my success, but my mantra has been it's about the journey, not the destination. [emoji41] it is amazing how some of the simplest-seeming tasks can turn into hours of work, especially with rookie uncertainty. I hope your build goes well!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

What am I missing here? You have a Carrera, but it doesn't look like it has hydraulic tensioners.

Great project by the way!

my initial thought with the absence of oil line on the right bank. This might also explain the pistons.

Here's another angle from the front of the motor.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1446951684.jpg

Right side.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1446952021.jpg

Next steps on the way to 3.5 power
 

Engine and tranny are out and I am now breaking things down, sending them off for rebuilding and collecting parts.

Next collection on my list is ignition for the dual plug set-up.
I have a used 964 distributor that needs a rebuild kit - where do I get such a thing???

The dissy came with a twin coil pack and this housing.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1448577896.jpg

I know I need new ignition cables etc, but what else do I need to make it functional?
I understand Andial signal splitters are scarce these days, so is this what I need?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1448578082.jpg

Check your PMs, Allan...

Rob

Head bolt issues
 

So in the process of removing the cylinder heads and completely disassembling the motor, 3 cylinder head stud nuts stripped and would not come loose.

Lots of lube and still no good. The rusted heads stripped in the inside before they would let go. So, cleaned the nuts, dried them well, put some burnishing paste in the hole to add to grip and retried the allen head nut removal tool.

Better!! Got 2 out of the three removed.
The last one is seriously stuck.
Ordered an ERWIN tool set with fat reverse thread removal bits to remove the stubborn nut. Once they came in, the final nut eventually gave way, but dang!! SO much force needed.

Turns out I have half steel, half dilivar head studs in the block.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1450973526.jpg

Here's the offending party!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1450973568.jpg

While I'm waiting
 

Now that all the parts are off to the machine shop, for cleaning and prep work for the 100mm cylinders, I am tackling the ignition problem for the twin plug plan.

I found this 964 dizzy, coils and ignition pack.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1450974159.png

My plan is to see if I can use the ignition modules to manage the firing for the powerplant.

Looks like you have it under control!

I would have experts check tolerances on the internals.

Straightening a 3.2 dashboard
 

Waiting on engine parts to return, so Im working on other options.

I removed stripped, cleaned, painted and rebuilt the brake calipers.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1450974471.jpg

Also, I have needed to recover the dash for a while.
The Texas heat has dried and shrank the leather on the dash, which peeled up the corner edges of the dash pad and warped it.
So I removed it, and it needs to be recovered, but it isnt straight.
Im not sure how to straighten it, so this is where I landed.

I mixed a 50/50 mixture of water based wood glue (Elmers or Liquid nails) and water.
I drew it up into a BBQ injecting needle and syringe left over from Thanksgiving.
I injected the mixture into the warped areas of the dash pad.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1450975048.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1450974852.jpg

Then I heated the area with a heat gun and clamped the area with braces and clamps and left it to dry. The water helped to spread the 'glue' into a wider area, the heat moved it around a little more and activated the drying process as well as aiding in the softening of the pad to allow for shaping.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1450975152.jpg

Extrude Honed Intake manifold
 

Despite all the mixed reviews over the power advantages (or lack thereof) of extrude honing the intake manifold in the 3.2 motor, in the interests of wot air delivery I elected to have it done.
Im trying to work my way toward 300 normally aspirated crank horsepower and believe this will aid in getting me there. I dont have the time/patience or budget to dyno the finished motor with and then without the honed manifold to finally put all the speculations to rest, but I can see how that would provide conclusive evidence of its effectiveness at different rpms...

Here are some before and after shots of the inside of the manifold.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1450975897.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1450975980.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1450976040.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1450976096.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1450976130.jpg

Motor had 170 000 miles. Everything looked GREAT. Wear on the original cylinders was so minimal I could still see the criss cross pattern on the cylinder walls.
Normal bearing wear, but even the oil pump gear walls show no signs of wear.

Very encouraging.

It is so impressive how these 30 year old engines last the test of mileage.

Wonder how the new ones do.

Subscribed!

Do yourself a favor, and put a larger throttle body on. The stock 63mm frankly sucks. The ports outflow the TB I bet. I put a 75mm on and holy crap, the car is sooooo responsive.

Tippy,

Can you fit a 75mm onto the stock intake manifold?
What TB are you using?

You can also bore open the stock one up to 66mm but if you know of a way to fit a 75mm that would be real nice to see pictures.

With my 80mm MAF the restriction is the TB, my MAF with S&B filter are wide open at 80mm at the filter side of the MAF and 76mm at the side that mates to the 90 deg rubber boot. I think Allan is going to use my MAF for this motor. I'm currently working on his dual coils to fire them directly from the DME, no Andial Splitter needed.

Hey Sal, cgarr asked to, I guess a thread is due.

It wasn't easy, but knowing now how to, doing another wouldn't take me long at all.

Tippy,

Yes a thread just on this topic would be great!

Good morning, Allan... What's the latest progress?