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More Poop Options for a 2.0 69 T

Have a 68k original mileage engine. Want more poop ( Hp) but would like to retain a numbers match Mag case.

Changing my mind after Rennsport did the heads.

What do you suggest that won't cost me my left XXX.

Thinking I would like to get in the 170 - 180 RWHP range.

This would be my 3 rd Porsche refresh in 30 years. Yeah, I am old now. All the others where when things were fairly cheap and always to stock factory specs.

Was looking at the AA pistons and Cylinders. They appear reasonable. But worried they won't last, this stuff any good? . That said it will be a weekend driver, little if any track time. I have other serious hod rods for that duty.

My gut says to go 2.450- 2.5ish, but not a P car mod pro at all.

So 86mm AA, Grind the case spigots to fit. Gets me 2.450 ish by my calc.
70.4mm crank.
What would be needed for rods?
What about heads? suggestions please.
Cams ? suggestions please.
Will run the stock Webber 40's with slight mods.

Keep in mid this will be a weekend driver, I would just like to enjoy the car in the So Cal driving and canyon road environments. I doubt it will see 20,000 miles in 10 years.

I am not sure I need to go through the trouble of shuffle pins, etc for this duty. But you all would know more than I.

Planning to sell the pristine 2.0 gear to help fund the added Poop.

Also considered a 2.7 - 3.0 - 3.2 CIS verted to Webber or Not as an option and keep the stock 2.0 ready to install.
Old 10-16-2016, 11:20 PM
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Obviously lots of options.
Here is what I did and have about 180+ chp.

base motor '70 T
90mm Mahle Pistons and cylinders
Stock crank and rods
heads cut 1mm, 35mm ports, no cylinder base gaskets, 8.4 to 1 CR.
E cams
Weber 40mm. K & N filters
Dansk sport muffler

Is your motor apart? Has the case been updated with case savers etc?
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Old 10-17-2016, 01:16 PM
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Yes, apart but case has not been split yet. Rennsport did the heads and believed the 68k orig miles. Suggested to check the rod bearings, may not want split it if refreshing stock.

Another person suggested adding oil to the case and let it sit for a couple weeks to see if it leaks. Got this as a project so don't know if it leaked from the case. One VC was leaking and ran down to the mating area on the case.

Thanks for the input, Yours is making good power and should be fun to drive and with regular gas to boot. Sounds like you used all the tricks to combo stock parts and keep compression up.

Looking at your sig. Man, I love those roads to explore in your neck of the woods. When I get this thing done maybe you can give me a few routes to explore, buy you a nice lunch or dinner.

I may be reading too many posts but have the impression that going to big to open up spigots on the 2.0 mag case is risky. Think that is true?

I also think I heard the 2.0 and 2.2 cases were the same, but memory is foggy if the 1970T got a 70.4mm crank or 66mm?. What about the rods in yours vs. my 69 ?

No case savers , studs came out without drama, new supertech set from pelican. So far this thing looks like it has never been touched. But missing some misc parts. Not a lot, but not cheaper like the old days.

Story is it ran fine, looked fine, but a storm caused a tree branch to damage the front fender/door and rear deck. Was a daily driver prior and stored since that time around 1978 ish. Has an odd Mark 10 ign box and the retainers on the tensioners. Otherwise very stock /correct for the period.
Old 10-17-2016, 09:15 PM
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The 2450 is an engine I have a great deal of experience with.
The last 2 engines I built for my own cars were this configuration.
I like it because it allows you to build pretty cool performance without compromising the case.
If you bore the 69 case out to fit 90mm barrels the spigot that supports the cylinder gets very thin and although it can be reversed, it can be a costly process, in the event the owner wants it completely stock.
The last 2 2450 we built (69T,& 70T) were 70.4 stroke 86mm bore. 9.5:1 compression, 36 mm intake and 35mm exhaust ports with DC 40 (Mod S) cams.
40 mm Webers and twin plug for the WOW appeal.
SSI heater boxes and an M&K sport muffler.
On the dyno they made 182 and 184 at the rear wheels @ around 6800 rpm.
Great engine to drive.



The dyno sheet below was a comparison of a stock 2.4T , 2.4T converted to 2.4S and the Supertec 2450. These are crank numbers.

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Old 10-18-2016, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraR1339 View Post
Yes, apart but case has not been split yet. Rennsport did the heads and believed the 68k orig miles. Suggested to check the rod bearings, may not want split it if refreshing stock.

Another person suggested adding oil to the case and let it sit for a couple weeks to see if it leaks. Got this as a project so don't know if it leaked from the case. One VC was leaking and ran down to the mating area on the case.

Thanks for the input, Yours is making good power and should be fun to drive and with regular gas to boot. Sounds like you used all the tricks to combo stock parts and keep compression up.

Looking at your sig. Man, I love those roads to explore in your neck of the woods. When I get this thing done maybe you can give me a few routes to explore, buy you a nice lunch or dinner.

I may be reading too many posts but have the impression that going to big to open up spigots on the 2.0 mag case is risky. Think that is true?

I also think I heard the 2.0 and 2.2 cases were the same, but memory is foggy if the 1970T got a 70.4mm crank or 66mm?. What about the rods in yours vs. my 69 ?

No case savers , studs came out without drama, new supertech set from pelican. So far this thing looks like it has never been touched. But missing some misc parts. Not a lot, but not cheaper like the old days.

Story is it ran fine, looked fine, but a storm caused a tree branch to damage the front fender/door and rear deck. Was a daily driver prior and stored since that time around 1978 ish. Has an odd Mark 10 ign box and the retainers on the tensioners. Otherwise very stock /correct for the period.
The '69 -71 T motors have the 66mm non counterweighted crank. The rods were improved on the '70 motors, as well as the case, not sure if that makes a difference.

I had my case and heads machined for the 90mm 2,7 Carrera P&Cs, which were available in 1981 when I built my motor. Yes, the spigots are really thin, but it has not really been an issue with my motor, in its relatively mild state of tune.

The best option, as Henry states, is to go with a 70mm crank and rod set.

Either way you will need case savers, or the studs WILL eventually pull out of the case. (Not sure if the studs you have will eliminate the need for case savers, you should check on this)
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Last edited by Trackrash; 10-18-2016 at 11:59 AM..
Old 10-18-2016, 11:54 AM
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Actually with Supertec studs and temperature control you might find that the case/studs will survive just fine.
One of the main reasons why studs pull out in mag cases is the spigot size and the proximity to the studs. As you bore the case for 90mm cylinders the material between the stud and the spigots get very thin. This condition (reduced structural rigidity) increases the possibility of pullout. If the material remains in tact stud pullout become far less common, I would actually suggest it's rare.
That said, CaseSavers are always a good idea.
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Last edited by Henry Schmidt; 10-18-2016 at 02:20 PM..
Old 10-18-2016, 12:22 PM
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About the best 'poop' per $ for a '69 but don't take my word for it...

United States Tuner for CDI+ - Classic Retrofit
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Old 10-18-2016, 02:16 PM
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The S motor in 69 was a totally different animal than the T of that year.
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Old 10-18-2016, 02:48 PM
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^ We have plenty of happy 'T' customers too!
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Old 10-18-2016, 03:11 PM
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My first 911 was a 1969 T Targa, all stock. I drove this car for about 4 years, fixing suspension, brakes, steering wear issues until I began to find that the car was too slow for me, so I started looking for a engine upgrade solution that would not break the bank.
This was around 1990, so a different world as far as price and availability of parts, but everything is relative, right?
What I ended up with, and was extremely pleased with was a 1972 2.4 E motor long block, which accepted all of my 69 T externals, including Webers, HE's, Flywheel, 910 tranny, alternator, and all external wiring. I put my 2.0 T long block on a shelf, still a numbers matching situation for the future.
In short, the new power train was a revelation! Low end torque, in town easy drivability, regular fuel with the low compression, and LOTS OF POWER. The little car was a rocket, light as any early car, and now with the E cams and 2.4 liters it was perfect. Probably around 150 to 160 hp. Never dynoed, but it was plenty.
So put that on your list of possibles, you already have everything you need except that 2.4 liter long block. (Probably ought to add in a new clutch assembly if you can find one of the early S aluminum ones you're set!)
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Old 10-18-2016, 03:14 PM
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The issue with building these early engines is that the compression numbers from Porsche were so inaccurate that it's really hard to quantify some of the performance upgrades.
All of the early compression ratios (C/R) were calculated differently than generally accepted methods used today. That leaves us with building engines that have C/Rs considerably lower than might be expected.
Using a non Mahle after market piston (with know C/R) or a Mahle piston with a much higher C/R than you have now is the easiest way to boost performance.
Blend that together with a reasonable cam and these little guys jump to life.
I like the Solex cam in carburetor engines for the best all around joy of driving.
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Old 10-19-2016, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt View Post
The issue with building these early engines is that the compression numbers from Porsche were so inaccurate that it's really hard to quantify some of the performance upgrades.
All of the early compression ratios (C/R) were calculated differently than generally accepted methods used today. That leaves us with building engines that have C/Rs considerably lower than might be expected.
Using a non Mahle after market piston (with know C/R) or a Mahle piston with a much higher C/R than you have now is the easiest way to boost performance.
Blend that together with a reasonable cam and these little guys jump to life.
I like the Solex cam in carburetor engines for the best all around joy of driving.
I had not heard that before.

As those of you who are old enough to remember most manufactures lowered their CRs in the 70s due to emissions restrictions. The '72 T for example had a published CR of 7.5 to 1. The 2,7 Carrera RS motor had a CR of 8.5 to 1. Silly by today's standards.

When I built my motor in '81 there were few piston options available. I was lucky to get my motor up to 8.4 to 1 using the Carrera RS P&C set. I measured this myself with a burette.

So what method did Porsche use back in the day to calculate their CR?

A friend of mine has a 2,2 E with S pistons and Webers. It's a very nice running motor.
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Old 10-19-2016, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackrash View Post
I had not heard that before.

As those of you who are old enough to remember most manufactures lowered their CRs in the 70s due to emissions restrictions. The '72 T for example had a published CR of 7.5 to 1. The 2,7 Carrera RS motor had a CR of 8.5 to 1. Silly by today's standards.

When I built my motor in '81 there were few piston options available. I was lucky to get my motor up to 8.4 to 1 using the Carrera RS P&C set. I measured this myself with a burette.

So what method did Porsche use back in the day to calculate their CR?

A friend of mine has a 2,2 E with S pistons and Webers. It's a very nice running motor.
I wold be interested in hearing how you got that much compression with those components with cutting the crap out of heads?

The "E" with "S" pistons is a nice running engine but really doesn't make nearly the compression claimed by Porsche.
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Old 10-19-2016, 01:50 PM
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Well, 1mm flycut in the heads is a lot. I also left off the cylinder base gaskets. If you calculate the CR mathematically with the flycut and no base gasket with the 66 mm crank it is ~8.4. I confirmed this with actual measurements. Had to finagle the cam housing thrust plate.... All good with 90K miles on the clock so far.
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Old 10-19-2016, 03:27 PM
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Thanks so much for those that chimed in.

Henry's motor pic looks so cool. Like Trash Rash noted, lots's of options.

Henry confirmed my fears of boring my mag case a bit too far for safety sake. Yet he also confirmed that he likes at least part of the combo I have come to think would be fun. Are the AA parts any good or will I hate the decision for my occasional joy driven purpose ?

Sounds like I absolutely need to step up for case savers on this Mag Case. Flying back from NYC today I read Wayne"s book in detail with a highlighter , so I would remember stuff. While Wayne is not the only source, and the book is quite old. It sure gives you many things to consider. And questions to ask.

I thank the community for the input, I cannot say enough how this community works to help one another. I have been a car guy for many years and have a lot of expertise with pretty much all Ford motors ( as you might guess from my handle) and Chevy LS motors. If I can ever be of help reach out to me. Getting an old guy updated on the more recent P Car tricks is so valuable. Lots of track time and SCCA experience as well.

I have over the years I have been so fortunate to work or run with some very cool cats. Tony Adomowicz and GS Johnson. got me into the P Car gig. If you are young google Tony . He was running in the same run groups in the 2.0 class as Parnelli Jones, Dan Gurney, Mark Donohue, Peter Revson, Penske, etc in the late 60's - early 70's Trans Am Wars.
Old 10-19-2016, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt View Post
The last 2 2450 we built (69T,& 70T) were 70.4 stroke 86mm bore. 9.5:1 compression, 36 mm intake and 35mm exhaust ports with DC 40 (Mod S) cams.
40 mm Webers and twin plug for the WOW appeal.
SSI heater boxes and an M&K sport muffler.
On the dyno they made 182 and 184 at the rear wheels @ around 6800 rpm.
Great engine to drive.
Henry - at 9.5:1 is twin plug a necessity? I thought that would be in the range of a single plug setup. Does this just give more top-end? I'm looking at a 2450 single plug ignition option.

Cheers!
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Old 07-10-2017, 09:41 PM
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When the stack height changes due to machining to crankcase spigot, cylinder height and cylinder head, this affects the camshaft axis in the cam housing; it must remain centered with its oil seal. In addition, since the camshaft now sits closer to the crank center line, the chain drive geometry changes resulting in additional chain slack, tensioner idler arm becomes closer to chain box, etc.). There are solutions, but realize the ramifications before starting.

Sherwood
Old 07-15-2017, 12:13 PM
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