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Total recovery cost.........

MFX,

Do you have an estimated total cost to get this motor back in good condition? I am referring to the machine work needed to get the parts ready for engine rebuild. The shipping costs alone of these parts back and forth to USA and Australia is quite expensive. And the labor cost here in US is not cheap too. Thanks.

Tony
Old 05-13-2017, 07:50 AM
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MFX MFX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boyt911sc View Post
MFX,

Do you have an estimated total cost to get this motor back in good condition? I am referring to the machine work needed to get the parts ready for engine rebuild. The shipping costs alone of these parts back and forth to USA and Australia is quite expensive. And the labor cost here in US is not cheap too. Thanks.

Tony
I don't at this stage, but you are correct. The repair work would not normally be worth while on a non-matching engine like this. Neil is helping me out in this case, and is also doing it to show that a lot of things can actually be repaired.
With the prices of these cars increasing, it is making it more and more worthwhile saving a matching numbers engine.
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Old 05-13-2017, 12:12 PM
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Good stuff Jeff - glad to have found you on Pelican as I have been watching your videos for a while now. I just watched your engine video yesterday and it's a good inspiration - I lost 2 cylinders in my engine on the drive from Canada to LA for Luftgekuhlt, so am looking at a rebuild now. Just have to get the car back fro LA first!

Cheers,
Keith
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Old 05-16-2017, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by horizontallyopp View Post
Good stuff Jeff - glad to have found you on Pelican as I have been watching your videos for a while now. I just watched your engine video yesterday and it's a good inspiration - I lost 2 cylinders in my engine on the drive from Canada to LA for Luftgekuhlt, so am looking at a rebuild now. Just have to get the car back fro LA first!

Cheers,
Keith
That is a bummer. Did you still get to Luftgekhult?
Best of luck with the rebuild.
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Old 05-16-2017, 01:20 PM
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That is a bummer. Did you still get to Luftgekhult?
Best of luck with the rebuild.
You bet - made it to Luft (I would have dragged myself there with my lips)! Didn't know you were going to be there - would have been cool to say hi.

We had 5/6 cars make the 5000 km round trip, so that's not bad. Mine's a bit down for the count, but won't stay down!
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Old 05-16-2017, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by horizontallyopp View Post
You bet - made it to Luft (I would have dragged myself there with my lips)! Didn't know you were going to be there - would have been cool to say hi.

We had 5/6 cars make the 5000 km round trip, so that's not bad. Mine's a bit down for the count, but won't stay down!
At least you made it. I was there all day until almost everyone had left, but it was so packed it would be hard to meet up with anyone. I had a great day and heaps of people came and said hi which was great.
Old 05-16-2017, 05:48 PM
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Want to bring this project up to date. A lot has happened since Jeff returned home. It has being a little disjointed as this is a fun project for us and we are doing this work in our free time. These air-cooled engines remind us of the time when this work was fun and not a brain cell killer. We have taken on another similar project (Manuel’s Project Stork) so that we can cover Jeff’s hot rod project and Manuel’s stock rebuild.
We intend to show how we approach this work, how we do the machine work and how we go about the assembly. These projects will show our twist on certain things. It’s our way but not the only way. Maybe some will see something that inspires them to do it this way or at least understand why. Removing the mystery out of this work is another objective in doing these projects. There is too much un necessary mystery that creates fear in the minds of many.
We are going to use as many off the shelf parts as possible where we feel the parts are up to our standard of quality. This may help others in their choice as well. We are developing some new parts as well. Some parts like the connecting rods are being reused, but rebuilt at a different CCL so we can shorten up the compression height and remove much of the pivot mass from above the pin centerline.
A new Piston design has been completed and these are currently in production at Mahle. We are currently testing the Valve seat shapes on a test head to find the optimum flow across the seat insert without going nuts with port shape and volume. Once we have this info we are going to design new lobe profiles that will allow us to use more modern features in a camshaft for these older engines. Hopefully lighten up the spring forces typically used often beyond what is required.
Jeff’s plan is to use ITB’s for the Intake and we have selected a capable system from the aftermarket. We are going to assemble a complete plug and play EFI system for this engine including the CDI Ignition system we currently supply. There are many systems to choose from and we have selected one that we feel offers the best control without going overboard with features these engines will never use and not breaking the budget.
I hope we can update our web site with current info and photos soon after the July 4th holiday.

Neil Harvey
Performance Developments
Old 07-01-2017, 04:37 PM
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Great stuff, looking forward to it!

Here's something you can develop for these engines - roller cams.

Saw a Boss 302 yesterday that had been converted to a roller. Had billet spacers on top of the heads under the valve covers to make room for the add'l height of the roller lifters. Little harder to do on a OHC though.
Old 07-02-2017, 05:43 AM
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There is a limit to what can be done to these early engines that makes sense engineering wise and financially. There isn't enough advantage gain over the radius rocker the roller will produce. In fact the contact stress I think is higher on the roller. The biggest disadvantage with a roller system is, all existing cam designs are not usable and all new designs would have to be created just to convert to the roller option.

Here is what we are developing. I posted this on the other site a little while ago.

I should have added in my last post what the new parts we are developing for these early engines. All very well baiting the hook but you do have to put the hook in the water to be fishing.

Here is a short list of what we are developing and or using.

Use of current anti friction coatings, including DLC and other PVD coatings. For engines that produce somewhere between 180- 250 HP, a gain of 5% is money well spent. If it also adds life to the engine is also money well spent.

Hollow Center Case dowels for through holes so new holes and solid dowel pins are not required in case webs.

Aluminum Roots Style Scavenge gears for Oil pumps for high scavenging efficiency, less aeration and lower oil temps.

New 92.0mm Mahle Piston with smaller pin size and shorter compression height using low tension narrower ring packages.

New Camshaft lobe profiles. More modern designs allowing for lower spring rates to be used for same RPM limits.

Crankshaft Damper with serpentine drive for Alternator. Will use some existing aftermarket parts from in this kit.

Electronics. A plug and play EFI system of quality that will not be overly complicated with features that are not required to run these early engines. Good control, easy to understand and install without losing sight of the objective, which is to upgrade from the CIS or carbureted systems. Jeff’s engine will use existing aftermarket hardware for the ITB style manifolding, but we will make parts to retain the original manifold with adapters to fit the electronic injectors. The Distributor will be retained for Ignition distribution to keep the Ignition side simple and most powerful. Adaption of existing OEM ECCS dual trigger for 6 Cylinder engines driven off Camshaft making system triggering simple and easy to install by the DIY. The EFI system can have features added at any time to include Oil pressure warning and engine stop, crank case pressure and other analog or digital functions. It will be sold in its most basic form and can be customized from there if required.

Engine running condition and data logging system. This will use an existing in expensive but quality logging dash to read and log the engine condition. The purpose of this is for the owner to be able to watch the condition of the engine while its running at temperature. There are only 4 input channels with 2 spare dedicated to EGT or other temps. This will be something that can be purchased in its most basic form and built on up to its maximum of 6 recorded channels. The basic system will read and log engine speed, (RPM), Crankcase internal pressure, (Piston ring and cylinder wall sealing condition, oil pump scavenging efficiency) and Oil pressure with an alarm function, and Oil temperature. The data can be down loaded, saved with a date and mileage to record and engine degradation that could be occurring. This is a standalone system that can be fitted to any car not using any other form of engine electronics. For owners tracking their cars with CIS or Carburetors that want to know the condition of their engine before and after an event, this is a good simple inexpensive device to keep track.

Exhaust system. A well-known exhaust manufacturing company has offered to develop a new exhaust system in conjunction with our other project, project “Stork”. We will offer support with engine engineering data so that this new design will maximize performance and sound.

The air-cooled world for us is like going back in time. We are very fortunate to have a working relationship with some of the most regarded air-cooled engine experts around and have used their knowledge and experience in shaping our direction and product development.

Thanks to all of you especially Steve at Rennsport Systems who has given most generously his experience and wisdom.

“You can never have enough of either”.
Old 07-02-2017, 12:31 PM
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Neil are these parts going to be specifically targeted at the 2.7L engine or are you looking at everything up to the 3.6?

Same applies to the exhaust from Borla (youtube).

Rob
Old 07-03-2017, 07:06 PM
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I really enjoyed the video and I find it inspiring and refreshing to see a business embrace and demand challenges such as "fixing the un fixable".
Old 07-04-2017, 05:33 AM
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I am actually back in the US and I will be heading back to Performance Developments next week so I will do another engine video update to show the progress to this stage.

I will also hopefully bring home some of the finished parts in my luggage to save myself a bit on shipping.
Old 07-04-2017, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by robcf View Post
Neil are these parts going to be specifically targeted at the 2.7L engine or are you looking at everything up to the 3.6?

Same applies to the exhaust from Borla (youtube).

Rob
Rob,
The original reason for getting involved in Jeffís project was to have some fun again and to bring some modern technology backwards into the early engine platforms. Without going over board and losing sight of the main objective.

When I started looking at what was offered for these older engines, it seemed to me that the old ways were still very much in play. ďWhen itís not broke donít fix itĒ is such a classic line but true. Itís not our intention to fix something thatís not broken, but to give it a more modern twist.

The Piston design for these older engines is a good example. We are taking a more modern approach to the design of the Piston.

Everything in this business gets copied and we expect many of the parts will be copied. You cannot get around it, so if we inspire others to do the same the whole Porsche community will benefit.

A lot of the parts we are developing are specific to these two early 2L engine projects. However, some of the parts will carry over for the bigger engines. As we get further into these projects we will show the individual parts and it will become clearer what parts can be used on other engines.
Old 07-04-2017, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Neil Harvey View Post
Rob,
The original reason for getting involved in Jeffís project was to have some fun again and to bring some modern technology backwards into the early engine platforms. Without going over board and losing sight of the main objective.

When I started looking at what was offered for these older engines, it seemed to me that the old ways were still very much in play. ďWhen itís not broke donít fix itĒ is such a classic line but true. Itís not our intention to fix something thatís not broken, but to give it a more modern twist.

The Piston design for these older engines is a good example. We are taking a more modern approach to the design of the Piston.

Everything in this business gets copied and we expect many of the parts will be copied. You cannot get around it, so if we inspire others to do the same the whole Porsche community will benefit.

A lot of the parts we are developing are specific to these two early 2L engine projects. However, some of the parts will carry over for the bigger engines. As we get further into these projects we will show the individual parts and it will become clearer what parts can be used on other engines.
Thank you for the feedback Neil.

I'm glad your enjoying working with Jeff on this project, it is certainly informative for the rest of us.

I appreciate your perspective and approach towards solutions that consider engineering judgment and validation.

Your website is also informative, however, I am interested in further discussion regarding CDI and its appropriateness for aircooled porsche engines. As you are aware high energy (200mj) inductive systems are available these days.
Old 07-04-2017, 10:16 AM
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Rob,
I am not aware of any Inductive coil that produces 200mJ, however we are always looking for quality high energy coils.

We stick with coils that are made by well-known company’s like Bosch and Magneti. The coil included in our CDI kit is supplied to us by our partner M&W who we trust provides a well-made and tested coil. We have partnered with M&W for over 20+ years and the product has shown both performance and reliably, everything an engine supplier requires.

The most powerful Inductive Coil we have tested was rated at 90mJ. It never matched the performance of the CDI when used in the 2 valve Porsche 911 based engine. We have tested the Mercury Marine IGN -1A Inductive coil that is rated at over 118mJ and it never performed close to the CDI. There are so many copies of these coil out there the quality is also a concern.

Every engine has its own needs and just because a certain part works on one engine well, doesn’t make it the only part. These early 911 engines have a large hemispherical combustion chamber and cantered spark plugs which require high energy to start the combustion process. Without going into the specifics, we have not found in any testing anything close to the performance of CDI when used with these engines.

If you have some more powerful Inductive Coils I am always open to advancing the products we use and supply.
Old 07-05-2017, 07:53 AM
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Neil,

The inductive coils I refer to are manufactured by Lance Nist (like yourself he has an interesting history) from Pantera EFI.

A friend of mine verified the dwell characteristics at Motec's HQ in Melbourne, Australia. Obviously the performance will be dependent on duty cycle and dwell, the maximum spark energy will be limited by operational characteristics of the engine and thermal performance of the coil.

The products can be purchased directly through Lance:

High Performance Inductive Coil PN 99891.305
NEW Products

Again thanks for the feedback regarding the CDI and the specific advantages for a older 911 engine. If you feel so inclined to share more information please dont hesitate. BTW have you ever observed missfires at lower engine speeds?

Kind regards,

Rob
Old 07-05-2017, 09:26 PM
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We know Lance very well. We have tested his coils.

As I said, we have not found anything that has out performed the Ignition system we use on these early 911 engines.

I'm sure there are many other options we have not tested but we always look a little deeper into the product, not just how it performs. Reliability, where its made and by whom are also very important.

There are many choices out there, you have to decide what is important to you and why.
Old 07-06-2017, 07:11 AM
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Im glad you know Lance and Im not surprised!

To clarify, when you say "early 911 engines", are you referring to anything air cooled? Pre 964? Pre Carrera ect?

I will add that the ease of upgrade for any distributed ignition is far superior with CDI unit such as the M&W vs 6 individual inductive coils.

What performance metrics do you consider when evaluating these products? Do you perform a hook test,
look at ignition advance for mean best torque for example?

Rob
Old 07-06-2017, 09:18 PM
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Rob,

No disrespect implied here.

I did not post the idea of an Ignition upgrade to get into a long drawn out discussion over the merits of one over another nor what we consider "best" over the rest.

You have to find your own "best" and what ever testing you consider relevant.

Everyone has their opinion of what is "best" and relevant. We have found ours and if others feel the same they will follow suit. For sure there are many alternatives some maybe better than our our choice.
Old 07-06-2017, 10:12 PM
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Well I have been away in the US for the past few weeks, and while I was there I dropped back in to Performance Developments so I could bring home some bits and also give you all an update on what is going on with the engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5-x__aN53o&t=3s
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http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/889676-home-built-hot-rod.html#post8868732
Old 07-14-2017, 05:54 PM
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