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KTL KTL is offline
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I wasn't necessarily endorsing the removable squirter for everyday use. Just pointing out the use of the retaining compound to hold their version in place. I recognize that an always-open squirter isn't for everyone. Since the engine in this case is a "race" engine, it's expected use was primarily high rpm operation. That said, it's understood that the engine is streetable and can idle w/out suffering oil pressure problems. Another thing to consider is that often times there are some squirters are found to be stuck open when doing a rebuild. Often times guys can free them up by treating them with solvent like Seafoam or similar.

I don't think anyone's worrying about the use of the retaining compound for the squirter placement. It's right there in the technical documentation. And thanks for scaring everyone about riding in their plane on the way to Disneyworld.........
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Old 11-07-2017, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom '74 911 View Post
Catorce,
Looking forward to the announcement and description of your version of the squirters. I will hold off installing the ones I have for now. I've got lots of other rebuild-related things I can be doing, like cleaning various pieces and parts etc... should keep me busy for quite a while at the pace I run...
Thanks,
Tom

Thanks Tom, will be any day now.....
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Old 11-07-2017, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by KTL View Post
And thanks for scaring everyone about riding in their plane on the way to Disneyworld.........
LOL.....

Yeah it has it in the tech documentation but Porsche advocated staking the stock squirters because they didn't trust the adhesive.

If you use 640 per the manufacturer's instructions, staking is totally not required - that was my point.
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Old 11-07-2017, 11:42 AM
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Catroce, I am going to be replacing the squirters in my 993 engine here soon after the final time it is machined for quad rings. I wanted to use the 993 turbo or RS squirters. I have the part number for the 993 turbo squirters that is 993.101.018.51. Looks like these have been superseded to 993.101.018.53 now. Can you confirm that?

How will your squirters flow vs the stock 993/turbo squirters? Any idea on what the cost per unit will be?
Old 11-07-2017, 03:11 PM
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Tocobill,

The flow rates of mine are similar or the same even though the internal geometry is different. The reason I say "similar" rather than "identical" is that there are a lot of factors that determine the flow of the squirters, chief of which is oil pressure and the type of oil pump used. But generally, mine will be similar.

The largest orifice you can get from Porsche is 2.0mm (964/993 sized). I make one in 2.5mm but it has the same flow as the Porsche 2.0 because my internal geometry is different.

I'll have a video posted later this week then people can make their own determination.

As to the stock ones, I too am showing it superseded to the part number you specified.

My squirters cost $45 each, that part I can tell you definitively. Stay tuned for more!
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Old 11-07-2017, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catorce View Post
My squirters cost $45 each, that part I can tell you definitively. Stay tuned for more!
Hi Catorce,
Just curious where you are w/additional info & the availability of your squirters. I'm part way through removing my originals (at least the questionable ones) and am not sure about using the ones my machine shop provided as replacements. They are not stock OEM Porsche squirters, but ones of their own making, which for all I know are just as good or better than OEM... but I'm just not sure how to proceed - trying to give myself and this engine the greatest chance for success.
Thanks,
Tom
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:23 AM
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OK, been making a little headway on removing the old squirters ("little" being the operative word...). I've been following the procedure outlined in this thread: Anybody here ever replaced piston squirters? by fastfredracing.

A quick summary:
1. drill out top of existing squirter w/5/32" drill
2. remove spring & ball
3. drill through bottom of squirter w/5/32" drill
4. tap squirter w/5mm tap
5. carefully dremmel staked case marks at top of squirter to ease extraction
5. fabricate slide hammer w/5mm bolt end attachment, which gets screwed into tapped existing squirter
6. gently heat case area around squirter
7. use slide hammer to extract existing squirter remains
8. be happy

I'm stuck at #7. Or rather the squirters are stuck in the case & won't budge with semi-gentle tapping w/the slide hammer. I'm afraid I will strip the threads out of the squirter as they are really soft aluminum and the 5mm tap is barely big enough to cut threads into it except at the bottom...

Anyone have suggestions for another extraction method? More heat? Bigger tap & bolt?

Thanks,
Tom









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Old 11-19-2017, 02:29 PM
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Tom,

What I like to do is take your 5mm tap and chuck it right into the drill. Drive it in the old squirter, try and get a grip on it then yank it out. Usually they will spin right out, remaining attached to the tap. Don't sweat it, use force, they come out easily. YOU WILL NOT DAMAGE THE CASE. Even if you shave a hair off the case by accident you can go to the oversize squirters. No big deal. Spin the tap vigorously into the squirter. IT WILL COME LOOSE, no heat required.

I'm waiting on the patent filings to post further, my squrters are done, videos are done, etc. I know I fhave been saying this a while but I am waiting on an attorney, what can I say, LOL......

any day now.
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Old 11-19-2017, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catorce View Post
Tom,

What I like to do is take your 5mm tap and chuck it right into the drill. Drive it in the old squirter, try and get a grip on it then yank it out. Usually they will spin right out, remaining attached to the tap. Don't sweat it, use force, they come out easily. YOU WILL NOT DAMAGE THE CASE. Even if you shave a hair off the case by accident you can go to the oversize squirters. No big deal. Spin the tap vigorously into the squirter. IT WILL COME LOOSE, no heat required.

I'm waiting on the patent filings to post further, my squrters are done, videos are done, etc. I know I fhave been saying this a while but I am waiting on an attorney, what can I say, LOL......

any day now.
Thanks for the tips, I appreciate it. I'm not so concerned w/hurting the case, but AM concerned about using enough force to strip the minimal threads the tap put into the squirter and being left with nothing to grab onto & yank on... Maybe an easy-out would work if that happens? or maybe I will do some math and figure if there is an SAE sized tap that's bigger than 5mm, but smaller than the 6mm-ish that is the ID of the squirter hole...

No worries on your timeline w/the lawyer stuff etc... I'm moving at glacial pace...

Thanks,
Tom

PS: here's another pretty slick method I found on youtube...

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Old 11-20-2017, 08:58 AM
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You don't have to sweat ruining the squirter at all and worrying that it won't be left in there, because a 6mm drill bit will remove it completely if need be. The OD of the squirter is 6mm on the nose. If you oval the hole, you can use a 6.4mm diameter bit and use the oversize squirters.
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Old 11-20-2017, 09:52 AM
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KTL KTL is offline
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That method shown in the video is not unlike removing the camshaft housing spray tube plugs on the ends of the housing. Drill a hole with a suitable drill bit for your chosen tap size, tap it accordingly, then use a screw and spacer assembly (a small socket with a decent size washer) to easily pull the plug out.
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Old 11-21-2017, 12:54 PM
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Had some good success removing the 2 squirters I'd drilled and tapped. This time, I tapped all the way through the bottom of the squirters and they both came out w/a few forceful whacks - the 5mm screw didn't just pull right out - phew!

Now on to the next hurdle - the replacement squirters I received from the machine shop are too big to fit in the existing holes w/out drilling them out. I measured them the other day and if I remember correctly, they are around 6.35mm OD. Are these oversized?

I think I could use stock sized ones if they are oversized, as the holes are pretty unmolested.

Thanks,
Tom
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Old 11-22-2017, 04:29 PM
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forgot the pics...




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Old 11-22-2017, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom '74 911 View Post
Had some good success removing the 2 squirters I'd drilled and tapped. This time, I tapped all the way through the bottom of the squirters and they both came out w/a few forceful whacks - the 5mm screw didn't just pull right out - phew!

Now on to the next hurdle - the replacement squirters I received from the machine shop are too big to fit in the existing holes w/out drilling them out. I measured them the other day and if I remember correctly, they are around 6.35mm OD. Are these oversized?

I think I could use stock sized ones if they are oversized, as the holes are pretty unmolested.

Thanks,
Tom
Stock are 6mm, oversize are 6.6mm
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Old 11-22-2017, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Flat6pac View Post
They have to be working at 40 psi
There is a couple small punch marks holding them in place
Pull them out, install the new ones and punch them to hold them in place
Bruce
Anyone know for sure when these thing must open?

I have heard 20 psi, 40 psi, etc...

I just tested mine, and 4 open at 50-55 psi. 2 open at 10 psi... No way 4 are malfunctioning and all opening at the exact same pressure I thought...

Googling shows that Bruce andersons 911 performance book mentions they should open at 45-55 psi on page 84. Yet most posts on here suggest they should be opening way earlier???

Peter Zimmerman in his book also mentions 45-55 psi. See post 7 Piston oil squirters question

I mentioned before that my oil pressure climbs really quick then plateaus at 60 psi... The squirter opening at 55 psi would absolutely explain that...

Why are others stating they should open much earlier? Is there variation from model to model?


Bo

Last edited by bpu699; 11-26-2017 at 04:37 PM..
Old 11-26-2017, 03:18 PM
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I thought we already went through this. I posted multiple times about when the squirters open, perhaps even on this thread.

How did you test your opening pressures, Bo? No one has tested more of these than I, and I have the patent to prove it.

I don't care what Bruce Anderson and all the gurus say. I have tested them ad nauseam. They open with as little as 20psi of water, are FULLY open and spraying at 40psi, and can be cracked open with as little as 10 psi of air.

They do NOT function as written in all these published works. The spring inside the stock squirters is very, very light and easily compressed.

The myth that they OPEN at 50 psi is just that, a MYTH.

If you are testing used squirters and they are opening at high pressures, they are loaded with gunk inside.
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Old 11-26-2017, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Catorce View Post
I thought we already went through this. I posted multiple times about when the squirters open, perhaps even on this thread.

How did you test your opening pressures, Bo? No one has tested more of these than I, and I have the patent to prove it.

I don't care what Bruce Anderson and all the gurus say. I have tested them ad nauseam. They open with as little as 20psi of water, are FULLY open and spraying at 40psi, and can be cracked open with as little as 10 psi of air.

They do NOT function as written in all these published works. The spring inside the stock squirters is very, very light and easily compressed.

The myth that they OPEN at 50 psi is just that, a MYTH.

If you are testing used squirters and they are opening at high pressures, they are loaded with gunk inside.
Catorce, it's your posts that inspired me to go back and check the opening pressures.

Used a pressure regulator and applied air pressure... Turned up the regulator until air came out...

Spent most of the day on a metal lathe, making a tool to flow oil/cleaner through the squirters. 90% done. Will hopefully post pics tomorrow if I'm done with it. It's kind of cool.

Tool passes through the case bolt passage, seals top and bottom, with o-rings to direct flow. It is threaded, and locked in place making it easy to use and push fluid through. Making the fixture really to be able to flow cleaner efficiently through the piston squirter, but can also be used to check opening pressure...

Catorce, respect your wealth of knowledge. Just sharing the results I found.

Will run through cleaner and see if it changes...

Bo

Last edited by bpu699; 11-26-2017 at 05:58 PM..
Old 11-26-2017, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by bpu699 View Post
Catorce, it's your posts that inspired me to go back and check the opening pressures.

Used a pressure regulator and applied air pressure... Turned up the regulator until air came out...

Spent most of the day on a metal lathe, making a tool to flow oil/cleaner through the squirters. 90% done. Will hopefully post pics tomorrow if I'm done with it. It's kind of cool.

Tool passes through the case bolt passage, seals top and bottom, with o-rings to direct flow. It is threaded, and locked in place making it easy to use and push fluid through. Making the fixture really to be able to flow cleaner efficiently through the piston squirter, but can also be used to check opening pressure...

Catorce, respect your wealth of knowledge. Just sharing the results I found.

Will run through cleaner and see if it changes...

Bo
I personally think testing the opening pressures of used squirters to be useless. The opening pressure of the piston squirter is controlled by two things and two things only:

1. The diameter of the bearing inside
2. The spring rate of the spring, which is very low.

Take one apart, you will note that the spring is similar to one found inside a bic pen. It's really light!

Also, if you are testing pressures with air, you are WRONG. These open with fluid pressure. Yes, I know air is a fluid, but let's not get carried away.

Test with water.

Oh, and you should be testing brand new squirters.
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Old 11-27-2017, 12:10 PM
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Will test with oil... Will clean, and retest. Just enjoying the process...

Didn't have a chance to work on the cleaner tool, will finish Saturday...

I didn't test new ones because my goal was to see if my old ones were in spec or not... They all flow air. I suspect 99% of motor rebuilders just blow air through them as a go/no-go test. I was curious what pressure mine opened at.

Will report back with pics...

Catorce, what opening pressure are yours manufactured to?

Bo
Old 11-27-2017, 02:58 PM
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Will test with oil... Will clean, and retest. Just enjoying the process...

Didn't have a chance to work on the cleaner tool, will finish Saturday...

I didn't test new ones because my goal was to see if my old ones were in spec or not... They all flow air. I suspect 99% of motor rebuilders just blow air through them as a go/no-go test. I was curious what pressure mine opened at.

Will report back with pics...

Catorce, what opening pressure are yours manufactured to?

Bo
Mine open at about 20-25psi just like stock.

You will not be able to see how they work if you have them mounted in the case....it's kinda cool. The stock ones and mine work identically. When fluid is pumped through them, they dribble at first, which happens in the 20psi range. It looks like a steady leak. All of a sudden, as the pressure is increased to about 35-45 psi, the dribble turns into a spray, and they make this buzzing noise which is the sound of the fluid passing over the coils of the spring inside the squirter. It's an angry hornet kind of sound that no one ever hears because its's drowned out by the motor.

So they open up and begin leaking as low as 20psi, but they don't achieve full spray pattern until 35-40 psi or so, and they level off after that. They flow a hair more between 40-60psi but the pattern looks the same.

Happy testing!
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Old 11-27-2017, 03:21 PM
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