Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Technical BBS > 1- Porsche Technical Forums > 911 Engine Rebuilding Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,067
Stuck piston squirters

Hello,

I am working on a 2.7L rebuild and am battling some stuck piston squirters...

The case has already been to The "A-List" Shop for a full R&R and they say that all the squirters were tested and working when it left... the receipt says that they cleaned them, no mention about replacing. Bottom line is that it regardless of if they were working when the case left them, a few are not working now, and they obviously need to be.

I have the Stomski Racing piston squirter cleaner air-hose attachment and a big-a$$ compressor, so I feel like my testing methods and understanding of how the squirters should operate is OK.

https://www.stomskiracing.com/products/911-piston-case-squirter-cleaner-1

I have tried soaking them w/Seafoam, brake cleaner, PB Blaster (although kinda hard to make sure any of that gets in to them)... and #3 & #6 will not flow any air. Also, the ones that do work, don't seem to flow consistently when compared to each other. Some seem to flow more air and at lower pressure than others. I'm a little frustrated as I'm not relishing boxing the case back up to ship back to them. It was a 5 month wait to get it back the first time around...

Just looking for some experience based ideas to getting them unstuck or info on replacing them... Are these a DIY replacement? or is sending the case back really the best long term course?

Thanks,
Tom
__________________
'74 911 Red Sunroof Coupe, 3.6L, etc...
Old 10-29-2017, 12:30 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Nash County, NC. Just west of Rt 95
Posts: 6,308
They have to be working at 40 psi
There is a couple small punch marks holding them in place
Pull them out, install the new ones and punch them to hold them in place
Bruce
Old 10-29-2017, 12:53 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,067
Hi Bruce,

I understand the basic procedure to replace them, but was just curious as to the actual level of difficulty.

Predictably, there are a lot of threads already on this! Here are a few that I found with helpful info.:

Anybody here ever replaced piston squirters?

Piston Squirters- 930 vs. 964

From the second thread, I think the correct PN for the squirters I need for a 2.7L case is: 911.101.011.01 but I need to verify that to be certain...

They are NOT cheap at $37 ea.... yikes!

Thanks,
Tom
__________________
'74 911 Red Sunroof Coupe, 3.6L, etc...
Old 10-30-2017, 09:50 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,067
Looking through the PET catalogs, I don't see any mention of the piston squirters until the '78-'83 version where they are called "splash valves" and have pn 911.101.011.01 for SCs and 930.101.015.00 for turbos.
__________________
'74 911 Red Sunroof Coupe, 3.6L, etc...
Old 10-30-2017, 10:02 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 8,362
Garage
Easy DIY'er project........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom '74 911 View Post
Hello,

I am working on a 2.7L rebuild and am battling some stuck piston squirters...

The case has already been to The "A-List" Shop for a full R&R and they say that all the squirters were tested and working when it left... the receipt says that they cleaned them, no mention about replacing. Bottom line is that it regardless of if they were working when the case left them, a few are not working now, and they obviously need to be.

I have the Stomski Racing piston squirter cleaner air-hose attachment and a big-a$$ compressor, so I feel like my testing methods and understanding of how the squirters should operate is OK.

https://www.stomskiracing.com/products/911-piston-case-squirter-cleaner-1

I have tried soaking them w/Seafoam, brake cleaner, PB Blaster (although kinda hard to make sure any of that gets in to them)... and #3 & #6 will not flow any air. Also, the ones that do work, don't seem to flow consistently when compared to each other. Some seem to flow more air and at lower pressure than others. I'm a little frustrated as I'm not relishing boxing the case back up to ship back to them. It was a 5 month wait to get it back the first time around...

Just looking for some experience based ideas to getting them unstuck or info on replacing them... Are these a DIY replacement? or is sending the case back really the best long term course?

Thanks,
Tom

Tom,

The hardest part of the job is overcoming your anxiety. Once you have decided to do it, it would take only a few seconds to drill out the clogged oil squirter. Use the right size drill bit to remove the 'stake marks' and pull the squirter out. Install the oil squirter and apply small amount of loctite (optional) and secure it in place by staking the opening hole. Do a pressure test to make sure that the squirters will not come off under pressure.

Tony
Old 10-31-2017, 02:00 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,067
Hi Tony,

I think you are 100% correct. Since my last post, I have been communicating w/the machine shop about sourcing some replacement squirters and will give it a go myself. It doesn't seem like THAT difficult of a job (famous last words?)... and if I get in a jam, I can always send the case back to have them do it for me.

Thanks,
Tom
__________________
'74 911 Red Sunroof Coupe, 3.6L, etc...
Old 10-31-2017, 02:42 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
 
Now Available for Ordering:   101 Projects For Your BMW 3 Series 1982-2000  [more info]
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 630
I have several patents on Porsche oil squirters and will be starting a thread within the next couple of weeks detailing my new rebuildable squirters. They are part of my case development program but they will be sold separately in case you want to wait for them.

As for the factory squirters, they come in a regular size and a .6mm oversize squirter in case you bugger up the hole when removing the old ones. The stock ones are 6mm diameter with varying orifice sizes depending on the year.

Oh, and they don't open anywhere near 40 PSI - more like 15 pounds of air on brand new ones. Lots of misconceptions out there.

The worst part about a squirter refit is removing the old ones. The rest is easy. Mine are way easier than the factory ones to install.
__________________
Current: 1963 356B T6, 1970 914-6 conversion 2.7, 1973 T, 1975 930 Turbo Targa, 1978 928 Race car, 6.57L, 1983 911SC, 2002 911 Targa, 2007 997TT, 2009 997TT, 2004 40th Anniversary Carrera

Only reproduction 3.6 cases on the planet, coming soon www.taorminaracingdesigns.com
Old 10-31-2017, 04:12 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,067
Catorce,

I've been following your 3.6L case development with great interest. Can you share any more info on your squirters? Are they ready to go now or a ways off in terms of availability etc...? I'm interested to hear more about them.

Thanks,
Tom
__________________
'74 911 Red Sunroof Coupe, 3.6L, etc...
Old 10-31-2017, 04:42 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 2,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catorce View Post
I have several patents on Porsche oil squirters and will be starting a thread within the next couple of weeks detailing my new rebuildable squirters. They are part of my case development program but they will be sold separately in case you want to wait for them.

As for the factory squirters, they come in a regular size and a .6mm oversize squirter in case you bugger up the hole when removing the old ones. The stock ones are 6mm diameter with varying orifice sizes depending on the year.

Oh, and they don't open anywhere near 40 PSI - more like 15 pounds of air on brand new ones. Lots of misconceptions out there.

The worst part about a squirter refit is removing the old ones. The rest is easy. Mine are way easier than the factory ones to install.
Is 15 psi the pressure they ARE supposed to open at? Seems awefully low...

Do yours open at a higher pressure?
Old 10-31-2017, 06:01 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 630
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom '74 911 View Post
Catorce,

I've been following your 3.6L case development with great interest. Can you share any more info on your squirters? Are they ready to go now or a ways off in terms of availability etc...? I'm interested to hear more about them.

Thanks,
Tom

They are ready to go, and I made a hundred sets. They are in a test motor as we speak getting run in, and I am doing a tear down on that motor next week to check everything out and ensure they are 100% good to go.

I will be posting a detailed thread within two weeks once i get the patent paperwork back.

I totally understand if you don't want to wait...TOTALLY.
__________________
Current: 1963 356B T6, 1970 914-6 conversion 2.7, 1973 T, 1975 930 Turbo Targa, 1978 928 Race car, 6.57L, 1983 911SC, 2002 911 Targa, 2007 997TT, 2009 997TT, 2004 40th Anniversary Carrera

Only reproduction 3.6 cases on the planet, coming soon www.taorminaracingdesigns.com
Old 10-31-2017, 08:39 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 630
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpu699 View Post
Is 15 psi the pressure they ARE supposed to open at? Seems awefully low...

Do yours open at a higher pressure?
I can't really divulge a huge amount until the patent papers come back (the invention is not supposed to be "out there" before the preliminary patent pending is granted), so I will talk exclusively about the Porsche squirters.

When I came up with my idea and developed my prototype, I purchased just about every type of factory squirter out there. It is no secret that they come in 6mm od and 6.6mm od sizes. It is also no secret that the orifice size of the jets is between 1.0 and 2.0mm depending on the year of the car. Lastly, within the squirter is a ball bearing and a spring; this mechanism is the check valve to prevent the squirters opening at idle and dropping the oil pressure.

I set up a test rig using pressurized water at exactly 40psi. This rig allowed me to shoot a jet of water through the squirters and show me their spray patterns. From here, I would lower the water pressure until the squrters just started to dribble out. In my testing, a factory squirter would begin to dribble with as low as 15psi of water.

Yes, I know water is not oil, but it at least provided an idea of what spring rate was used within the squirter. Also, there is the ball bearing to take into account; it is of a specific size so that the oil can pass AROUND it after spring pressure is overcome.

Lastly, I hooked up the squirters to shop air, and found that as little as 10psi of air pressure could open up the squirter.

So I am here to tell you that the "40 psi" and up number that people quote on the internet is patently WRONG. Porsche squirters are open LONG before that....which is a very good thing. They do not bleed off much oil pressure at all, and I tested the flow rates of various orifice sizes as well.

You WANT these things to open up at low pressures, just not at idle is all.

Mine use a check valve as well, but that is where the similarities end. I feel the check valve is important for street cars which idle a lot.

More to follow soon!
__________________
Current: 1963 356B T6, 1970 914-6 conversion 2.7, 1973 T, 1975 930 Turbo Targa, 1978 928 Race car, 6.57L, 1983 911SC, 2002 911 Targa, 2007 997TT, 2009 997TT, 2004 40th Anniversary Carrera

Only reproduction 3.6 cases on the planet, coming soon www.taorminaracingdesigns.com
Old 10-31-2017, 08:47 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 2,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catorce View Post
I can't really divulge a huge amount until the patent papers come back (the invention is not supposed to be "out there" before the preliminary patent pending is granted), so I will talk exclusively about the Porsche squirters.

When I came up with my idea and developed my prototype, I purchased just about every type of factory squirter out there. It is no secret that they come in 6mm od and 6.6mm od sizes. It is also no secret that the orifice size of the jets is between 1.0 and 2.0mm depending on the year of the car. Lastly, within the squirter is a ball bearing and a spring; this mechanism is the check valve to prevent the squirters opening at idle and dropping the oil pressure.

I set up a test rig using pressurized water at exactly 40psi. This rig allowed me to shoot a jet of water through the squirters and show me their spray patterns. From here, I would lower the water pressure until the squrters just started to dribble out. In my testing, a factory squirter would begin to dribble with as low as 15psi of water.

Yes, I know water is not oil, but it at least provided an idea of what spring rate was used within the squirter. Also, there is the ball bearing to take into account; it is of a specific size so that the oil can pass AROUND it after spring pressure is overcome.

Lastly, I hooked up the squirters to shop air, and found that as little as 10psi of air pressure could open up the squirter.

So I am here to tell you that the "40 psi" and up number that people quote on the internet is patently WRONG. Porsche squirters are open LONG before that....which is a very good thing. They do not bleed off much oil pressure at all, and I tested the flow rates of various orifice sizes as well.

You WANT these things to open up at low pressures, just not at idle is all.

Mine use a check valve as well, but that is where the similarities end. I feel the check valve is important for street cars which idle a lot.

More to follow soon!
Do you have an anticipated date when yours might be available? Price range?

Also, if a Porsche squirter has in fact failed in open mode, and dribbles at idle... how much effect on oil pressure is that? Your post suggests it likely isn't much.

And just as an educational point, since I love to learn, whats the damage if a squirter is stuck closed? I ask as it seems lots of folks find stuck squirters on disassembly, yet nothing bad happened? Is the issue accelerated wear? Detonation? Faster wear on the rod short end bushing? All of the above?

Thanks!
Bo
Old 11-01-2017, 05:32 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 630
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpu699 View Post
Do you have an anticipated date when yours might be available? Price range?

Also, if a Porsche squirter has in fact failed in open mode, and dribbles at idle... how much effect on oil pressure is that? Your post suggests it likely isn't much.

And just as an educational point, since I love to learn, whats the damage if a squirter is stuck closed? I ask as it seems lots of folks find stuck squirters on disassembly, yet nothing bad happened? Is the issue accelerated wear? Detonation? Faster wear on the rod short end bushing? All of the above?

Thanks!
Bo
Bo,

My squirters will be available within the next week or two; I am also currently making an install video as well so that is taking some time. They will be ready LONG before the cases because I am not just sitting idle while the cases get made, I am introducing other ancillary products, the squirters being one of them.

They don't fail open to my knowledge. What they actually do is dribble, then driblle a little stronger, then when the pressure required to move the check valve open happens, they make this weird noise (like a hornet buzzing) and they burst into a spray pattern.

My guess is that as the squirter ages, contaminants in the oil slightly delay they opening of the check valve.....SLIGHTLY. Just gums up the works a little.

As to the effects of a stuck squirter, I won't pretend to know all of the ramifications involved with that. I don't really see any written data on the point of a piston squirter other than to cool the bottom of the piston; early 911 engines didn't even have squirters, which implies that they did not need them for lubrication purposes.

The real effect of a dead squirter should be increased combustion chamber temperatures, which of course diminishes performance.
__________________
Current: 1963 356B T6, 1970 914-6 conversion 2.7, 1973 T, 1975 930 Turbo Targa, 1978 928 Race car, 6.57L, 1983 911SC, 2002 911 Targa, 2007 997TT, 2009 997TT, 2004 40th Anniversary Carrera

Only reproduction 3.6 cases on the planet, coming soon www.taorminaracingdesigns.com
Old 11-01-2017, 10:52 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catorce View Post
They are ready to go, and I made a hundred sets. They are in a test motor as we speak getting run in, and I am doing a tear down on that motor next week to check everything out and ensure they are 100% good to go.

I will be posting a detailed thread within two weeks once i get the patent paperwork back.

I totally understand if you don't want to wait...TOTALLY.
Thanks for the offer! I do have some stock squirters coming from the machine shop, but I'll be looking for the announcement of your redesigned versions shortly & it's quite possible that I will not have installed the stock ones by the time you are ready to make yours available...

My rebuild, like a lot of things porsche it seems, has been a one step forward, 2 steps back process...

Thanks,
Tom
__________________
'74 911 Red Sunroof Coupe, 3.6L, etc...
Old 11-01-2017, 12:22 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
KTL KTL is offline
Schleprock
 
KTL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Frankfort IL USA
Posts: 15,087
Send a message via Yahoo to KTL
Tom,

Shoot cgarr a message. He's installed these in cases that don't have them and he's replaced existing squirters as well.

I recall him saying that removal isn't terribly difficult. He did mention that staking the new ones in place is harder than you think. Porsche must have used some kind of rig to stake them because it's a very clean dent in the case material. Whereas doing it by hand takes some finesse and a good tool choice to avoid having it look "hacked"

He did this service for me on my 3.0L case when he installed the main web shuffle sleeves (his version of shuffle pins) in the through bolt holes. It's similar to what Neil Harvey shows in this thread

Home Built engine build. Saving the unsaveable.
__________________
Kevin L
'79 911SC widebody conversion
'86 Carrera
Past: '87 Carrera "The Unicorn"
Old 11-03-2017, 07:46 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,067
One of the threads I linked in a post above has a pretty good blow-by-blow description of removal and installation: Anybody here ever replaced piston squirters?

I'm assuming that for the staking, I'll grind a chisel tip or something similar to an appropriate size, as that's not a tool I currently have in my toolbox.

Also interesting - I've communicated with a few people on whether or not to use loctite on the replacements. I heard a clear "NO" from both. I did find a note in a factory service manual however that says "YES"... It's from the 993 FSM, but there isn't much mention of the squirters in earlier manuals that I could find. Maybe 3.6L cases are different in this area?

I received some stock replacement squirters in the mail and one of them has a tip that's a little wonkey - enough so that I will not install it in my engine...

One step forward, two steps back...

Here's the not-quite-right tip next to a good one:





__________________
'74 911 Red Sunroof Coupe, 3.6L, etc...
Old 11-05-2017, 07:20 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 630
All of this was written when the properties of Loctite 640 were not well understood. With my squirters, they just tap in there with a light press fit and the 640 holds them. No staking is necessary.

With a stock squirter, I would not even consider staking them. Staking the squirters is a placebo; it does NOTHING to keep them in there more than the 640 does.

In my own testing, I could not break my squirters loose after using 640. I had to use 250 degrees C of heat to break the adhesive....that's like 450 degrees F, way hotter than the engine would ever run at.

Also, Henkel, the manufacturer of Loctite 640 has a great spec sheet that shows their strength testing of 640.....immersed in ENGINE OIL at 125 degrees CELCIUS for...wait for it....1000 hours with no measurable loss in strength.

I would fully stick them in there with adhesive and not even bother staking them.

That is how my squirters work; no staking of any kind. Trust the adhesive, it really works.
__________________
Current: 1963 356B T6, 1970 914-6 conversion 2.7, 1973 T, 1975 930 Turbo Targa, 1978 928 Race car, 6.57L, 1983 911SC, 2002 911 Targa, 2007 997TT, 2009 997TT, 2004 40th Anniversary Carrera

Only reproduction 3.6 cases on the planet, coming soon www.taorminaracingdesigns.com
Old 11-05-2017, 09:51 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
KTL KTL is offline
Schleprock
 
KTL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Frankfort IL USA
Posts: 15,087
Send a message via Yahoo to KTL
One of the members here Gertvr shared with me his squirter installation that believe he had don done by JB Racing in FL. They came up with a removable squirter setup that uses a threaded insert in the bearing web and the squirter goes into the insert


" it's threaded & has a hex "in-head" like an Allen screw with a hole drilled through. The squirter passage is threaded and squirter screws into it with locktite to stop it from coming loose. Got them from Mike B at JB Racing"


Mike B is no longer at JB Racing from what I understand. But he still participates on the forum. His username is MBruns if anybody wants to ping him. Good guy with a wealth of experience.

My point of sharing that info. isn't to suggest that we should all consider altering the case for the threaded insert. Just sharing another example of using Loctite to secure the squirter in place. The removable squirters are obviously for an engine that is opened up somewhat frequently
__________________
Kevin L
'79 911SC widebody conversion
'86 Carrera
Past: '87 Carrera "The Unicorn"
Old 11-07-2017, 07:13 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 630
Quote:
Originally Posted by KTL View Post
One of the members here Gertvr shared with me his squirter installation that believe he had don done by JB Racing in FL. They came up with a removable squirter setup that uses a threaded insert in the bearing web and the squirter goes into the insert


" it's threaded & has a hex "in-head" like an Allen screw with a hole drilled through. The squirter passage is threaded and squirter screws into it with locktite to stop it from coming loose. Got them from Mike B at JB Racing"


Mike B is no longer at JB Racing from what I understand. But he still participates on the forum. His username is MBruns if anybody wants to ping him. Good guy with a wealth of experience.

My point of sharing that info. isn't to suggest that we should all consider altering the case for the threaded insert. Just sharing another example of using Loctite to secure the squirter in place. The removable squirters are obviously for an engine that is opened up somewhat frequently
His squirters are a normal square head plug with a 1mm hole in there, no check valve, and require tapping the case. Not bad for a race car, but not right for a street car.

If there is worry about using Loctite 640 to secure the squirter, perhaps one shouldn't ride in a modern airliner that is all stuck together with adhesives and no rivets. Henkel, parent company of Loctite is behind all that aircraft adhesive as well. They know what they are doing.

My testing of 640 proves it to be nearly indestructible when kept within its heat range.
__________________
Current: 1963 356B T6, 1970 914-6 conversion 2.7, 1973 T, 1975 930 Turbo Targa, 1978 928 Race car, 6.57L, 1983 911SC, 2002 911 Targa, 2007 997TT, 2009 997TT, 2004 40th Anniversary Carrera

Only reproduction 3.6 cases on the planet, coming soon www.taorminaracingdesigns.com
Old 11-07-2017, 09:19 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,067
Catorce,
Looking forward to the announcement and description of your version of the squirters. I will hold off installing the ones I have for now. I've got lots of other rebuild-related things I can be doing, like cleaning various pieces and parts etc... should keep me busy for quite a while at the pace I run...
Thanks,
Tom
__________________
'74 911 Red Sunroof Coupe, 3.6L, etc...
Old 11-07-2017, 09:52 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:57 PM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2016 Pelican Parts - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.