Stuck piston squirters
 

Hello,

I am working on a 2.7L rebuild and am battling some stuck piston squirters...

The case has already been to The "A-List" Shop for a full R&R and they say that all the squirters were tested and working when it left... the receipt says that they cleaned them, no mention about replacing. Bottom line is that it regardless of if they were working when the case left them, a few are not working now, and they obviously need to be.

I have the Stomski Racing piston squirter cleaner air-hose attachment and a big-a$$ compressor, so I feel like my testing methods and understanding of how the squirters should operate is OK.

https://www.stomskiracing.com/products/911-piston-case-squirter-cleaner-1

I have tried soaking them w/Seafoam, brake cleaner, PB Blaster (although kinda hard to make sure any of that gets in to them)... and #3 & #6 will not flow any air. Also, the ones that do work, don't seem to flow consistently when compared to each other. Some seem to flow more air and at lower pressure than others. I'm a little frustrated as I'm not relishing boxing the case back up to ship back to them. It was a 5 month wait to get it back the first time around...

Just looking for some experience based ideas to getting them unstuck or info on replacing them... Are these a DIY replacement? or is sending the case back really the best long term course?

Thanks,
Tom

They have to be working at 40 psi
There is a couple small punch marks holding them in place
Pull them out, install the new ones and punch them to hold them in place
Bruce

Hi Bruce,

I understand the basic procedure to replace them, but was just curious as to the actual level of difficulty.

Predictably, there are a lot of threads already on this! Here are a few that I found with helpful info.:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/643424-anybody-here-ever-replaced-piston-squirters.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/727717-piston-squirters-930-vs-964-a.html

From the second thread, I think the correct PN for the squirters I need for a 2.7L case is: 911.101.011.01 but I need to verify that to be certain...

They are NOT cheap at $37 ea.... yikes!

Thanks,
Tom

Looking through the PET catalogs, I don't see any mention of the piston squirters until the '78-'83 version where they are called "splash valves" and have pn 911.101.011.01 for SCs and 930.101.015.00 for turbos.

Easy DIY'er project........
 

Tom,

The hardest part of the job is overcoming your anxiety. Once you have decided to do it, it would take only a few seconds to drill out the clogged oil squirter. Use the right size drill bit to remove the 'stake marks' and pull the squirter out. Install the oil squirter and apply small amount of loctite (optional) and secure it in place by staking the opening hole. Do a pressure test to make sure that the squirters will not come off under pressure.

Tony

Hi Tony,

I think you are 100% correct. Since my last post, I have been communicating w/the machine shop about sourcing some replacement squirters and will give it a go myself. It doesn't seem like THAT difficult of a job (famous last words?)... and if I get in a jam, I can always send the case back to have them do it for me.

Thanks,
Tom

I have several patents on Porsche oil squirters and will be starting a thread within the next couple of weeks detailing my new rebuildable squirters. They are part of my case development program but they will be sold separately in case you want to wait for them.

As for the factory squirters, they come in a regular size and a .6mm oversize squirter in case you bugger up the hole when removing the old ones. The stock ones are 6mm diameter with varying orifice sizes depending on the year.

Oh, and they don't open anywhere near 40 PSI - more like 15 pounds of air on brand new ones. Lots of misconceptions out there.

The worst part about a squirter refit is removing the old ones. The rest is easy. Mine are way easier than the factory ones to install.

Catorce,

I've been following your 3.6L case development with great interest. Can you share any more info on your squirters? Are they ready to go now or a ways off in terms of availability etc...? I'm interested to hear more about them.

Thanks,
Tom

Is 15 psi the pressure they ARE supposed to open at? Seems awefully low...

Do yours open at a higher pressure?

They are ready to go, and I made a hundred sets. They are in a test motor as we speak getting run in, and I am doing a tear down on that motor next week to check everything out and ensure they are 100% good to go.

I will be posting a detailed thread within two weeks once i get the patent paperwork back.

I totally understand if you don't want to wait...TOTALLY.

I can't really divulge a huge amount until the patent papers come back (the invention is not supposed to be "out there" before the preliminary patent pending is granted), so I will talk exclusively about the Porsche squirters.

When I came up with my idea and developed my prototype, I purchased just about every type of factory squirter out there. It is no secret that they come in 6mm od and 6.6mm od sizes. It is also no secret that the orifice size of the jets is between 1.0 and 2.0mm depending on the year of the car. Lastly, within the squirter is a ball bearing and a spring; this mechanism is the check valve to prevent the squirters opening at idle and dropping the oil pressure.

I set up a test rig using pressurized water at exactly 40psi. This rig allowed me to shoot a jet of water through the squirters and show me their spray patterns. From here, I would lower the water pressure until the squrters just started to dribble out. In my testing, a factory squirter would begin to dribble with as low as 15psi of water.

Yes, I know water is not oil, but it at least provided an idea of what spring rate was used within the squirter. Also, there is the ball bearing to take into account; it is of a specific size so that the oil can pass AROUND it after spring pressure is overcome.

Lastly, I hooked up the squirters to shop air, and found that as little as 10psi of air pressure could open up the squirter.

So I am here to tell you that the "40 psi" and up number that people quote on the internet is patently WRONG. Porsche squirters are open LONG before that....which is a very good thing. They do not bleed off much oil pressure at all, and I tested the flow rates of various orifice sizes as well.

You WANT these things to open up at low pressures, just not at idle is all.

Mine use a check valve as well, but that is where the similarities end. I feel the check valve is important for street cars which idle a lot.

More to follow soon!

Do you have an anticipated date when yours might be available? Price range?

Also, if a Porsche squirter has in fact failed in open mode, and dribbles at idle... how much effect on oil pressure is that? Your post suggests it likely isn't much.

And just as an educational point, since I love to learn, whats the damage if a squirter is stuck closed? I ask as it seems lots of folks find stuck squirters on disassembly, yet nothing bad happened? Is the issue accelerated wear? Detonation? Faster wear on the rod short end bushing? All of the above?

Thanks!
Bo

Bo,

My squirters will be available within the next week or two; I am also currently making an install video as well so that is taking some time. They will be ready LONG before the cases because I am not just sitting idle while the cases get made, I am introducing other ancillary products, the squirters being one of them.

They don't fail open to my knowledge. What they actually do is dribble, then driblle a little stronger, then when the pressure required to move the check valve open happens, they make this weird noise (like a hornet buzzing) and they burst into a spray pattern.

My guess is that as the squirter ages, contaminants in the oil slightly delay they opening of the check valve.....SLIGHTLY. Just gums up the works a little.

As to the effects of a stuck squirter, I won't pretend to know all of the ramifications involved with that. I don't really see any written data on the point of a piston squirter other than to cool the bottom of the piston; early 911 engines didn't even have squirters, which implies that they did not need them for lubrication purposes.

The real effect of a dead squirter should be increased combustion chamber temperatures, which of course diminishes performance.

Thanks for the offer! I do have some stock squirters coming from the machine shop, but I'll be looking for the announcement of your redesigned versions shortly & it's quite possible that I will not have installed the stock ones by the time you are ready to make yours available...

My rebuild, like a lot of things porsche it seems, has been a one step forward, 2 steps back process...

Thanks,
Tom

Tom,

Shoot cgarr a message. He's installed these in cases that don't have them and he's replaced existing squirters as well.

I recall him saying that removal isn't terribly difficult. He did mention that staking the new ones in place is harder than you think. Porsche must have used some kind of rig to stake them because it's a very clean dent in the case material. Whereas doing it by hand takes some finesse and a good tool choice to avoid having it look "hacked"

He did this service for me on my 3.0L case when he installed the main web shuffle sleeves (his version of shuffle pins) in the through bolt holes. It's similar to what Neil Harvey shows in this thread

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/951269-home-built-engine-build-saving-unsaveable-2.html#post9772917

One of the threads I linked in a post above has a pretty good blow-by-blow description of removal and installation: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/643424-anybody-here-ever-replaced-piston-squirters.html

I'm assuming that for the staking, I'll grind a chisel tip or something similar to an appropriate size, as that's not a tool I currently have in my toolbox.

Also interesting - I've communicated with a few people on whether or not to use loctite on the replacements. I heard a clear "NO" from both. I did find a note in a factory service manual however that says "YES"... It's from the 993 FSM, but there isn't much mention of the squirters in earlier manuals that I could find. Maybe 3.6L cases are different in this area?

I received some stock replacement squirters in the mail and one of them has a tip that's a little wonkey - enough so that I will not install it in my engine...

One step forward, two steps back...

Here's the not-quite-right tip next to a good one:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1509894402.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1509894402.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1509894769.jpg

All of this was written when the properties of Loctite 640 were not well understood. With my squirters, they just tap in there with a light press fit and the 640 holds them. No staking is necessary.

With a stock squirter, I would not even consider staking them. Staking the squirters is a placebo; it does NOTHING to keep them in there more than the 640 does.

In my own testing, I could not break my squirters loose after using 640. I had to use 250 degrees C of heat to break the adhesive....that's like 450 degrees F, way hotter than the engine would ever run at.

Also, Henkel, the manufacturer of Loctite 640 has a great spec sheet that shows their strength testing of 640.....immersed in ENGINE OIL at 125 degrees CELCIUS for...wait for it....1000 hours with no measurable loss in strength.

I would fully stick them in there with adhesive and not even bother staking them.

That is how my squirters work; no staking of any kind. Trust the adhesive, it really works.

One of the members here Gertvr shared with me his squirter installation that believe he had don done by JB Racing in FL. They came up with a removable squirter setup that uses a threaded insert in the bearing web and the squirter goes into the insert


" it's threaded & has a hex "in-head" like an Allen screw with a hole drilled through. The squirter passage is threaded and squirter screws into it with locktite to stop it from coming loose. Got them from Mike B at JB Racing"

Mike B is no longer at JB Racing from what I understand. But he still participates on the forum. His username is MBruns if anybody wants to ping him. Good guy with a wealth of experience.

My point of sharing that info. isn't to suggest that we should all consider altering the case for the threaded insert. Just sharing another example of using Loctite to secure the squirter in place. The removable squirters are obviously for an engine that is opened up somewhat frequently

His squirters are a normal square head plug with a 1mm hole in there, no check valve, and require tapping the case. Not bad for a race car, but not right for a street car.

If there is worry about using Loctite 640 to secure the squirter, perhaps one shouldn't ride in a modern airliner that is all stuck together with adhesives and no rivets. Henkel, parent company of Loctite is behind all that aircraft adhesive as well. They know what they are doing.

My testing of 640 proves it to be nearly indestructible when kept within its heat range.

Catorce,
Looking forward to the announcement and description of your version of the squirters. I will hold off installing the ones I have for now. I've got lots of other rebuild-related things I can be doing, like cleaning various pieces and parts etc... should keep me busy for quite a while at the pace I run...
Thanks,
Tom

I wasn't necessarily endorsing the removable squirter for everyday use. Just pointing out the use of the retaining compound to hold their version in place. I recognize that an always-open squirter isn't for everyone. Since the engine in this case is a "race" engine, it's expected use was primarily high rpm operation. That said, it's understood that the engine is streetable and can idle w/out suffering oil pressure problems. Another thing to consider is that often times there are some squirters are found to be stuck open when doing a rebuild. Often times guys can free them up by treating them with solvent like Seafoam or similar.

I don't think anyone's worrying about the use of the retaining compound for the squirter placement. It's right there in the technical documentation. And thanks for scaring everyone about riding in their plane on the way to Disneyworld......... ;)

Thanks Tom, will be any day now.....

LOL.....:D

Yeah it has it in the tech documentation but Porsche advocated staking the stock squirters because they didn't trust the adhesive.

If you use 640 per the manufacturer's instructions, staking is totally not required - that was my point.

Catroce, I am going to be replacing the squirters in my 993 engine here soon after the final time it is machined for quad rings. I wanted to use the 993 turbo or RS squirters. I have the part number for the 993 turbo squirters that is 993.101.018.51. Looks like these have been superseded to 993.101.018.53 now. Can you confirm that?

How will your squirters flow vs the stock 993/turbo squirters? Any idea on what the cost per unit will be?

Tocobill,

The flow rates of mine are similar or the same even though the internal geometry is different. The reason I say "similar" rather than "identical" is that there are a lot of factors that determine the flow of the squirters, chief of which is oil pressure and the type of oil pump used. But generally, mine will be similar.

The largest orifice you can get from Porsche is 2.0mm (964/993 sized). I make one in 2.5mm but it has the same flow as the Porsche 2.0 because my internal geometry is different.

I'll have a video posted later this week then people can make their own determination.

As to the stock ones, I too am showing it superseded to the part number you specified.

My squirters cost $45 each, that part I can tell you definitively. Stay tuned for more!

Hi Catorce,
Just curious where you are w/additional info & the availability of your squirters. I'm part way through removing my originals (at least the questionable ones) and am not sure about using the ones my machine shop provided as replacements. They are not stock OEM Porsche squirters, but ones of their own making, which for all I know are just as good or better than OEM... but I'm just not sure how to proceed - trying to give myself and this engine the greatest chance for success.
Thanks,
Tom

OK, been making a little headway on removing the old squirters ("little" being the operative word...). I've been following the procedure outlined in this thread: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/643424-anybody-here-ever-replaced-piston-squirters.html by fastfredracing.

A quick summary:
1. drill out top of existing squirter w/5/32" drill
2. remove spring & ball
3. drill through bottom of squirter w/5/32" drill
4. tap squirter w/5mm tap
5. carefully dremmel staked case marks at top of squirter to ease extraction
5. fabricate slide hammer w/5mm bolt end attachment, which gets screwed into tapped existing squirter
6. gently heat case area around squirter
7. use slide hammer to extract existing squirter remains
8. be happy

I'm stuck at #7. Or rather the squirters are stuck in the case & won't budge with semi-gentle tapping w/the slide hammer. I'm afraid I will strip the threads out of the squirter as they are really soft aluminum and the 5mm tap is barely big enough to cut threads into it except at the bottom...

Anyone have suggestions for another extraction method? More heat? Bigger tap & bolt?

Thanks,
Tom

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1511130350.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1511130350.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1511130350.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1511130350.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1511130350.jpg

Tom,

What I like to do is take your 5mm tap and chuck it right into the drill. Drive it in the old squirter, try and get a grip on it then yank it out. Usually they will spin right out, remaining attached to the tap. Don't sweat it, use force, they come out easily. YOU WILL NOT DAMAGE THE CASE. Even if you shave a hair off the case by accident you can go to the oversize squirters. No big deal. Spin the tap vigorously into the squirter. IT WILL COME LOOSE, no heat required.

I'm waiting on the patent filings to post further, my squrters are done, videos are done, etc. I know I fhave been saying this a while but I am waiting on an attorney, what can I say, LOL......

any day now.

Thanks for the tips, I appreciate it. I'm not so concerned w/hurting the case, but AM concerned about using enough force to strip the minimal threads the tap put into the squirter and being left with nothing to grab onto & yank on... Maybe an easy-out would work if that happens? or maybe I will do some math and figure if there is an SAE sized tap that's bigger than 5mm, but smaller than the 6mm-ish that is the ID of the squirter hole...

No worries on your timeline w/the lawyer stuff etc... I'm moving at glacial pace...

Thanks,
Tom

PS: here's another pretty slick method I found on youtube...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/wnMvxvt0e9U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

You don't have to sweat ruining the squirter at all and worrying that it won't be left in there, because a 6mm drill bit will remove it completely if need be. The OD of the squirter is 6mm on the nose. If you oval the hole, you can use a 6.4mm diameter bit and use the oversize squirters.

That method shown in the video is not unlike removing the camshaft housing spray tube plugs on the ends of the housing. Drill a hole with a suitable drill bit for your chosen tap size, tap it accordingly, then use a screw and spacer assembly (a small socket with a decent size washer) to easily pull the plug out.

Had some good success removing the 2 squirters I'd drilled and tapped. This time, I tapped all the way through the bottom of the squirters and they both came out w/a few forceful whacks - the 5mm screw didn't just pull right out - phew!

Now on to the next hurdle - the replacement squirters I received from the machine shop are too big to fit in the existing holes w/out drilling them out. I measured them the other day and if I remember correctly, they are around 6.35mm OD. Are these oversized?

I think I could use stock sized ones if they are oversized, as the holes are pretty unmolested.

Thanks,
Tom

forgot the pics...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1511397041.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1511397041.jpg

Stock are 6mm, oversize are 6.6mm

Anyone know for sure when these thing must open?

I have heard 20 psi, 40 psi, etc...

I just tested mine, and 4 open at 50-55 psi. 2 open at 10 psi... No way 4 are malfunctioning and all opening at the exact same pressure I thought...

Googling shows that Bruce andersons 911 performance book mentions they should open at 45-55 psi on page 84. Yet most posts on here suggest they should be opening way earlier???

Peter Zimmerman in his book also mentions 45-55 psi. See post 7 http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/650664-piston-oil-squirters-question.html

I mentioned before that my oil pressure climbs really quick then plateaus at 60 psi... The squirter opening at 55 psi would absolutely explain that...

Why are others stating they should open much earlier? Is there variation from model to model?


Bo

I thought we already went through this. I posted multiple times about when the squirters open, perhaps even on this thread.

How did you test your opening pressures, Bo? No one has tested more of these than I, and I have the patent to prove it.

I don't care what Bruce Anderson and all the gurus say. I have tested them ad nauseam. They open with as little as 20psi of water, are FULLY open and spraying at 40psi, and can be cracked open with as little as 10 psi of air.

They do NOT function as written in all these published works. The spring inside the stock squirters is very, very light and easily compressed.

The myth that they OPEN at 50 psi is just that, a MYTH.

If you are testing used squirters and they are opening at high pressures, they are loaded with gunk inside.

Catorce, it's your posts that inspired me to go back and check the opening pressures.

Used a pressure regulator and applied air pressure... Turned up the regulator until air came out...

Spent most of the day on a metal lathe, making a tool to flow oil/cleaner through the squirters. 90% done. Will hopefully post pics tomorrow if I'm done with it. It's kind of cool.

Tool passes through the case bolt passage, seals top and bottom, with o-rings to direct flow. It is threaded, and locked in place making it easy to use and push fluid through. Making the fixture really to be able to flow cleaner efficiently through the piston squirter, but can also be used to check opening pressure...

Catorce, respect your wealth of knowledge. Just sharing the results I found.

Will run through cleaner and see if it changes...

Bo

I personally think testing the opening pressures of used squirters to be useless. The opening pressure of the piston squirter is controlled by two things and two things only:

1. The diameter of the bearing inside
2. The spring rate of the spring, which is very low.

Take one apart, you will note that the spring is similar to one found inside a bic pen. It's really light!

Also, if you are testing pressures with air, you are WRONG. These open with fluid pressure. Yes, I know air is a fluid, but let's not get carried away.

Test with water.

Oh, and you should be testing brand new squirters.

Will test with oil... Will clean, and retest. Just enjoying the process...

Didn't have a chance to work on the cleaner tool, will finish Saturday...

I didn't test new ones because my goal was to see if my old ones were in spec or not... They all flow air. I suspect 99% of motor rebuilders just blow air through them as a go/no-go test. I was curious what pressure mine opened at.

Will report back with pics...

Catorce, what opening pressure are yours manufactured to?

Bo

Mine open at about 20-25psi just like stock.

You will not be able to see how they work if you have them mounted in the case....it's kinda cool. The stock ones and mine work identically. When fluid is pumped through them, they dribble at first, which happens in the 20psi range. It looks like a steady leak. All of a sudden, as the pressure is increased to about 35-45 psi, the dribble turns into a spray, and they make this buzzing noise which is the sound of the fluid passing over the coils of the spring inside the squirter. It's an angry hornet kind of sound that no one ever hears because its's drowned out by the motor.

So they open up and begin leaking as low as 20psi, but they don't achieve full spray pattern until 35-40 psi or so, and they level off after that. They flow a hair more between 40-60psi but the pattern looks the same.

Happy testing!