Timing Chain Replacement

[MaxBoost]

Hey guys I have a big problem, I'm a little new to rebuilding engines, well I have a BMW 735il 89' and i'm replaceing the timing chain with a new one I followed the manual and brought the crankshaft sproket woodroof key to 12:00 position whitch brought piston 1 and 6 to tdc and positioned the camshaft dough pin hold between 7:00 and 8:00 whitch chosed both the intake and exhost valves for cyl 1 and 6, this is where i'm lacking experence I'm able to place the chain on the crank sprocket and put the cam sproket on the cam with the cam sprocket dowgh pin [the one that is between 7:00 and 8:00] to line up perfectly but I have slack both on the left side and the right side on the crakshaft its not enough [i'm looking at the on a stand so you can understand my right means driver side and my left means pass side] i know when i install the pistion sand the tensenor it will eliminate the slack from the left side but what about the slack on the right [right side of the crankshaft sproket]?

I'm only replaceing the timing chain not the sprokets is thier something i'm suppose to look on the timing chain to make it fit a citran way with the cam sproket or cranksproket or what am i overlooking, this is actually the first time replaceing a timeing chain so i'm probably overlooking something ovious or simple.
[Could it be that i need to adjust the valves because i had a valve job done on it and i haven't brought the valves excerentic back to the origional position as it started with since i did not know if that is done before the timeing ching. Are their timing marks on new chains that time to line up a cirtan way in relation to thier respective sprokets? Or is it than on a new chain you can start anywhere on the chain? One more peace of information is that on the crackshaft in addition to the woodroof key being at 12:00 position T at the end of the crankshaft appears to be at the 3:00 position.
I will greatelly apperacate any and all help.
Max

[Larry F.]

Hi, Max.

I am hoping the manual you are referring to is the Bentley - it has excellent instructions on the timing chain installation. You did not mention *why* you had to replace the chain - are you doing other things to the head and motor at the same time? How many miles on the motor? In any event, here are some observations:

- I don't believe the chain is marked. Start it anywhere.
- The valve adjustment has nothing to do with the chain replacement.
- I presume you are replacing the cam and crank seals

With the chain on, turn the camshaft counter-clockwise a tiny bit to take up the slack on the right side (driver's) of the chain. Recheck the alignments. I'm willing to bet they will still look just fine. It does not take much to take up slack. When you have the front timing covers back on, and have reinstalled the chain tensioner, put engine oil in the compartment surrounding the tensioning piston, and pump the piston up by pushing the chain out and letting it spring back. After a few strokes the movement should get very hard as the piston fills up with oil. This little trick will prevent a very distressing chain slap noise when you first restart the motor.

Hope this helped, Larry F.

(If you haven't already gotten this together and have more questions, I would be willing to brave the cold outside and go get *my* Bentley!) LF

[MaxBoost]

Hi Larry
you were absolutely right the timing chain isn't marked for location i am able to place it any ware on the cam and crank and to take up some of the slack on the driver side [the non tensoner side] i just adjusted the camshaft to counter clockwise and adjusted the crank shaft a little bit to take up the rest of the slack on that side leaveing me with a very stiff right side and as for the left side the tensoner shall take care of it and the way you sugested to blead the piston on the tensoner side makes sense althow i have not tried it as of yet cause i ran into a slight problem on the cylinder block with one of the daugh pin holes was not excepting the head bolt so i removed the dowh alighment pin and noticed that the threads were stripted so i'm going to take it to my near by machine shop and have them heli-coil it and as far as the repair manual i'm useing is the chilton manual for import cars checked out from my library cause the bmw bentley manual for the 7 series is in the range of $119 whitch is a little steep for me right now but i've had good sucess useing a combnation of books to give me knowledge. And as far as doing other thing I am, I baught this car not running and have replaced the fuel pump, am in the process of replaceing the charchoial line, the return line, the pressusure regulator, new brake pads all the way around and new e brake shows and rotors, as well as all the gaskets, a new thermostate, as well as cleaning out a very darty engine, any and all tips are greatly apperacated as this is the first time I am evey doing an engine rebuild. If possable I would love to exchange email addresses and/or aol instant messanger names to ask you questons if i run into future problems cause it seems to me that you are pretty knowloagable about the issues. Thanks again for your help

Max

[Larry F.]

Hi, Max.

I passed along my e-mail in a Private Message (so web crawlers don't start sending me spam), and I like to continue the conversations here in the Bulletin Board so others can chime in - then we *both* learn!

If you bought this car as a non-runner, what troubleshooting did you do first? Starting with a timing chain seems pretty drastic. What original symptoms did it have?

Just curious . . . Larry F.

[MaxBoost]

well what it had was a no start, crank but no start actually so i put some starter fluid in it and after a little while i got a small amount of start up and then died so i tested the dead head pressure at the fule pump whitch i was getting like 43 and droping and was suppose to be 100 on dead head and like 43 for holding so i did a little research and looking at the digram of the fule pump suspected the check valve but i anticapated the fule pump would give me more problems in the future so I replaced the pump and after a little starter fuluid and correcting the return line [was kinked a little bit] the car started up with massive oil leaks i suspected the valve cover and the head gastic to be the primary causes so i'm in the process of doing a complete engine rebuild and am in the final stages, i torqued the new head gastic yestoday and have replaced every gastic in the engine and new piston rings, new man barings and, new rod barings my next questing is the nut that goses on the crankshaft after the vibration dampner is it really suppose to be torqued at 311-325 ft lbs and how do you do it my torque wrench goes up to 150 and a torque multipliyer costs some ware in the range of $300 + and i'm hessantant on useing a impact because i would not get an torque measurement and it might destroy the new seal i installed, as far as the seals go do i just fill the seal with asembly grease everywhere on the seal?

[Larry F.]

Max:

You have a lot of observations there - I'll give them my best shot. In your future posts, you might consider using blank lines to make the text easier to read. Hit twice after a paragraph - empty space is cheap!

(Just did the two trick) Now to your first observation: 43 lbs is a reasonable fuel pressure measurement. But, since you have replaced the fuel pump already, it is a moot point.

Congrats on the engine rebuild - pretty ambitious, and especially to chase oil leaks. How many miles were on the engine? It is not unusual to need a head gasket at 100K+ (unfortunately) but the lower ends are good for 300K easy if the engine is well cared for.

Yeah, the front crank pulley really *does* want that kind of torque - my recommendation is to approximate it by figuring out how long a lever arm you need, to deliver the 300 ft/lbs with your full weight on it. Just to make an example easy, let's say you weigh 150 lbs - put a two foot bar on the socket and stand on the very end - viola! fairly close to 300 ft/lbs.

Other folks out there: is there a trigonomotry issue I am ignoring? I hope not . . .

And, don't worry about crushing the seal - it is not being compressed by that torquing. Lastly, you don't have to *fill* any of the seals with assembly grease - just put enough on the surfaces to let them slide together easily.

[MaxBoost]

Hay Larry
great idea about the leverage i'm not quite sure how much torque i put on the center nut by standing on the end of the pipe but am hoping it was more then 300 ft lb

Another question is i'm replacing my thermonstate and it came with 2 things that resemble a o-ring well one resenbales a o-ring and the other is a little bit larger and like almost dubble the size in hight of the o-ring and has a grove cut in the center is that correct for the bmw 735il or was it mispackaged?

Thanks

Max

[Larry F.]

Hi, Max.

Sorry it's been so long - I have been out of town. Maui, in fact, so I guess I lied about being sorry!

In any event, a general rule of thumb in picking the right seal is to use what the old one had, given that *it* did not leak. I have used both styles of seal, with good luck. When you have the old thermostat out (and have cleaned the surface thoroughly) see how each of the seals fit. If you use the round one, insert the thermostat into the coolant manifold (toward the engine) first, then install the o-ring on top of that. The thermostat cover should clamp the thermostat down via the o-ring.

It is also good practice to clear all the tapped holes in the housing with the appropriate-sized tap - probably a 6 mm x 1.25 pitch. This makes reassembly much easier.

Hope this helps,

[MaxBoost]

Hi Larry,
Hope you enjoyed the trip to Maui, it sounds like alot of fun.

You were right about multiptual seals fitting on the thermonstate, i went with one that was not included with the package but is still suppose to work for that make and modal car, the square cut seal, as far as it seemed to me it was the best fit.

I just put the engine back in the car yestoday and am ready to put the transmission in now, whitch brings me to my next question.

When I install the tranmission do I put the torque convertor to the flex plate and secure it with the three bolts and then rase the transmission to mate with the splines in the torque convertor or do i put the torque convertor on while i have the transmission on the floor jack and then rase it up to mate with the flex plate?

Is their a pacific way i need to install the torque convertor so i don't damage the splines?

Once i do actually have the transmission installed and propally mated with the flex plate im i correct in assumeing I rase the back end up of the transmission to connect it with the driveshaft? And I have to replace the splender nuts right, do I also have to replace the splender blolts?
And another ploblem I may run into is when I was installing the rotors and brank pads I spun the driveshaft so will that make a difference connectiong to the back of the transmission or will i have drive shaft balance problems or does the tranmission and the driveshaft only connect in one corrrect way?

One last question when I spin the crankshaft pully the normal direction of rotation is clockwise when I am standing infront of the car and looking at the whindshild correct?

I know thats alot of questions but thats alot for your help.
Max

[Larry F.]

Hi, Max.

Yep, we had a wonderful time. Congrats on getting the motor back together - and yes, looking from the front, the normal direction of rotation is clockwise.

On the auto tranny install (and I highly recommend getting the Bentley - find a used E28 one, which has the same engine and tranny (almost). Anywho:

1) The flexplate goes on the crankshaft first.
2) The torque converter rests in the front of the tranny
3) Securing the flexplate was very annoying - I had to get an offset
17mm box wrench to reach the cap screws.
4) Jacking the tranny into place is touchy, but not too bad.
5) I rotate the tranny a bit to engage the splines gently
6) After the tranny seats forward over the two locating collars,
bolt them together.
7) Jack the rear of the tranny up high enough to be able to install
the rear support (with new tranny mounts, of course)
8) I am also presuming you replaced the output shaft seal . . .

I am not sure what a "splender nut" is, but I presume you are referring to the nuts on the bolts securing the guibo. Yes, you should renew them, although many folks do not. The bolts do not require replacement.

Mounting the two-piece driveshaft is a bit tricky.

1) The two halves should be marked so they can be assembled
in exactly the same way - this is important to balance. The
factory put a white paint dot on many of them. The factory
alignment has all the yokes lined up, as well.
2) Secure the rear of the rear half-shaft to the diff. Same story
with the nuts here - the manual says to replace them, many
do not. Last time I tried to buy some from my local dealer,
they had only 1 on hand, and did not have any reordered.
This suggests to me that at least *this* dealer did not
bother to replace the nuts.
3) Slide the male end of the spline on the front half-shaft into the
front of the rear half - aligning it as mentioned above.
4) Slide them together to make the assembly as short as possible
and engage the front with the guibo. There are several
variations on output shaft, guibo's and dampers, so your
details will have to be worked out.
5) When the front is engaged in the guibo, mount the center
bearing loosely.
6) Install all the guibo bolts and torque. Memory says 56 ft/lbs.
7) Remember you do not want to twist the rubber when you are
torquing them, so you want to secure the end of the bolt that
is on the guibo, and drive the end that goes through the yoke.
8) You want to "pre-load" the center bearing by getting everything
lined up, then pushing the center bearing mount forward about
3 mm, then tighten the two bolts.

Reinstall heat shields, exhaust, etc. and fire it up!

Hope this helps, Larry F.

[MaxBoost]

Thanks thats just what i needed to know.

But I do need to cleary on one or 2 points I already have my flexplate attached to the engine [on the back of the crankshaft] and I used all new bolts for them [8 of them] and torqued them to 75 ft lbs.

After that I would put a new output shaft seal and then I would put the torque convertor on the front of the tranmission as far back as I can phically get it right?

Then I would rase the transmission up and try to rotate it a very little bit while rotating the torque convertor so it engages the splines on the transmission and then I would push on the back of the transmission to engage the torque converter on to the flexplate [going into the crankshaft hole] then I would turn the crank shaft to get it in position for the 3 bolts that secure the convertor to the flywheel and after that is done I would bolt all the transmission bellhoulseing bolts and then I would rase the back end up and secure it with the with the yoke on the drive shaft right?

It is a 2 piece driveshaft but the only end I seprated was the end at the back of the transmission with the yoke still attached to the transmission and just lowered it a little bit and let it set on a chair.

I did not do anything with the center support bearing. Do I still have to remove the the metal crossmember from unerneath the center support baring and take a pry bar and and push the center support baring toward the engine and then put the cross member back on? Or do i leave it alone?

Now since the yoke is still on the driveshaft will it make any difference that the drive shaft was rotated when I spun the wheel to put the brakes on since I am just attaching the yoke to the back of the transmission ? The yoke and the back of the transmission do do not have any thing to do with balance do they, since the snap rings were not removed on the yoke to driveshaft right?

And the last thing I would do would be brigh the whole exhost system back and in stall it right?

Thanks again,
Max

[Larry F.]

Max:

Basically, yes, you seem to have it. You simplified things by not separating the two halves of the driveshaft, but you will still need
to "preload" the center bearing by shifting it forward the 3 mm. This is very simple - nothing else needs to be taken off - you just loosen the two 13mm cap screws (bolts) and do it by hand.

When you raise the back end of the tranny, you will secure it with the crossmember, not the driveshaft as you wrote. I am sure you would have used the crossmember. ;~) You are right, it does not matter that you spun the wheels in the meantime.

Go for it! Larry F.

[MaxBoost]

Hay Larry,
How's it going?
I'm finally ready to test the car now I think. Wanted to dabble check something with you first though, the car is a auto trans, so I am assuming it uses Auto Trans fluid for power staring fluid [Dexron III How do you bleed the power steering system, I understand I would be turning the staring wheel form right to left for 10 min but how does the booster play into it? While the power steering reservoir was empty I did press the brake paddle a few times when I was attempting to contact the new disc brakes to thee rotor will that affect things? [I am assuming that it uses a combination system, booster and power steering correct?
One more question is, do you know the torque spec for the front and rear caliper bolts [One book I have seen suggests 89ft lbs and another book suggests 48 ft lbs] [And the slider bolt torque are suggested to be 18-22 ft lbs]

Thanks again for your help
Max

[Larry F.]

Max:

Glad to hear the car is coming together. No sweat on bleeding the p/s fluid. The only trick to it is that you need to fill the reserviour with Dex III when the brake "bomb" is completely discharged. Since your car has not been running for ages, that should already be the case. The way to do it down the road is to stomp on the brake pedal 15 - 20 times. It will start out relatively soft, with the boost still available, and slowly get hard. If your p/s system is empty, put a quart in, run the engine to run the p/s pump, and turn the wheel lock to lock a time or two. The p/s fluid will get milky looking from tiny bubbles pumped into it, but no sweat. Turn the engine off, do the stomp business, and the system should take the last 0.2 qts of Dex III to bring the level up to the indicator ring. Oh, yeah - have you replaced the p/s filter in the bottom of the reserviour? I have not actually done it, but read many times that it should be done. You can certainly do it later.

On the torque spec, Bentley lists the torques for the front and rear at 81 and 50 ft-lbs respectively. Close enough to the numbers you have. I also put "medium" strength Locktite on them. 18 on the sliders sounds about right.

Have fun!

[MaxBoost]

Hay Larry
Finally got it started yestoday [it was a great feelinig]. But did run into a few problems the first was
I had my fuel pressure gage connected to the pressure line in a T fitting [I am assumeing the pressure line connects to the line that goes to the fuel rail not connected to the pressure regulator and the return line connects to the line comming off the pressure regulator correct?] and my pressure at the guage was going above 100 psi, this is while the return line was connected, but then I took off the return hose and started the car, letting the fuel that came out of the pressure regulator side return into a gas contaner I my pressure came to around 43 psi so I suspect that their is a kink in the return line.

My Second and larger problem is one of the hoses that come off the power stering pump has a large hole in it, I need to get a replacement but I'm not quite sure what this hose is called, it is on the power settring pump on the left side and uses a 17 mm wrench, too the right of this hose is a short hose that comes off the power steering resovar and connects to the pump and uses a 19 mm wrench. The 17 mm hose then travles around the oil pan and back to the driver side of the car where it connects to a much thinner metal line, another problem I have run into is where this hose connects to the very thin metal line, that line has broken [the line uses a 11 mm on the left nut and a 14 mm on the right nut]. At the moment I have the 17 mm power searing line off the car and the short metal line that is suppose to have a 11 mm nut connection is broken but I do have the 11 mm nut itself in tact is their any way I and get the nut back on the line and is their any way I can fix the power steering pump line that has a hole in the flexable hose portion of the line not the metal part, lastly do you know the name of that line or how it is classified ?

Thanks again for your help.
Max

[Larry F.]

Max:

Congrats on getting as far as you have!

On the fuel pressure thing, sounds like your diagnosis is correct. I have never heard of that line being plugged, but it would give you those symptoms.

On the p/s hose, if you can get the whole thing out, there are shops that can renew the rubber parts. I can't say where to find one near you, but it is doable. Or, call someone like PelicanParts and describe the part to them - they have detailed drawings that should be able to put the right name - and part number - on the part.

What happened to the car to take it off the road? Kinked fuel return line, holes in the p/s hoses - it sounds like something pretty violent happened to it.

Later, Larry F.

[MaxBoost]

Hi Larry, how are you? What have you been up to? I'm sorry I haven't written in so long to update you on the progress of the project but I've been out of town for studies.
Since I wrote last things seem to be moving in the right direction THE CAR IS RUNNING AND DRIVABLE!!! It was an outstanding feeling driving it for the first time... Hears what led up to and happened so far....

I had to remove the transmission again because it was leaking transmission fluid I found out it was the output shaft seal, the first one I had gotten and placed on it was slightly to large and was causing the transmission fluid to leak to the torque converter when I got the right seal it was perfect fit and no more leaks.

What caused those pressure readings was that in the fuel pump in the tank I accidentally had the return line over tightened with the clamp since I thought it would be safer to put 2 clamps on each line for more security my second clamp was just slightly too high on the return line causing the high pressure readings.

I'm not sure what happened to the car before to cause all these things I bought it in a non running condition.

Then I finally got it started and for a day or too it smoked allot form the tail pipe I would in tribute this to the engine being rebuilt.

One problem I ran into was and to some extent still is somewhat erratic rpm in the first few days what is was doing is the rpm would drop and then come up it even did it once when I was at a stop in drive the rpm dropped and killed the engine, the best way I could describe what happened would be if you are in gear and you let go of the clutch in a manual transmission, kind of like that I am suspecting it may be a problem with the Idle air control [IAC] valve what do you think? How exactly do you set ignition timing, where are the timing marks and what is the procedure?

Next I drove it a little bit but all of the tires that were on it had bulges on them so the first thing I did was take it to get the tires changed and once the tires were change it drive smooth for a short time the a couple hours later I felt a very strong vibration in the steering wheel and the entire car including allot on the passenger seat, at 40 mph to about 60 mph I had suspected and then confirmed that one of a couple of the wheel weights had fallen off so I had them rebalance it and same thing happened thing was who ever was balancing it, was static balancing and putting a metal weight and they kept coming off so on the third attempt I had them use the static tape and those seem to be holding I have absolute no vibration at between 40 and 50 mph now bet between 50 and 55 mph I still have the vibration I suspect what has happened is since the car was sitting for so long with no air in some tires one of the rims must have gotten bent slightly and is causing a wobble probably.
Another thing I replaced was the driver side inner and outer to toe assemble because the ball on the outer side was unseated causing the driver side tire to move up and down.

I have also had the rear diff fluid replaced.

The next problem I ran into was the wiper motor was no longer working and I got a smell of rubber burning on to the motor, what this turned out to be was the passenger side linkage on the wiper arm had seized into place and this caused the motor to overheat and melted the plastic covering to itself I removed the assembly and separated the linkage and found out the motor itself was still in tact and functioning so I spent some time and allot of PB Blaster and unfroze the passenger side linkage and now its back in operation.

I have also discovered that the hoses that are suppose to lead to the heater core were plugged up with a screw leading me to the only conclusion that the heater core was leaking so I am in the process of removing the core presently I have removed all off the center counsel and allot of the right and left side counsel including the glove box including the passenger side sway bar holding the glove box making it allot easer to remove the heater core cover at this point I am unscrewing the 3 hoses that connect to the core, the problem I’m going to run into is since the hoses [in the engine compartment] that were suppose to lead to the core were not connected I'm not quite sure which hose is suppose to go in which hole to bring the heater core into the circuit, any idea?

The odometer is working and it says it car has 46K or so on it but be bulb that light the odometer seems to be fused so I need to pull the instrument cluster, do I need to also remove the air bag and then the steering wheel or can I just pull the cluster off without doing that I am assuming if I do it this way without removing the air bag the only thing I really need to do is pull the negative cable that’s under the back passenger side seat and I doesn’t even have to pull the seat off to remove the battery and let the negative stay off for a period of longer then 30 min to disengage the air bag correct?

Well that pretty much brings you up to speed.

I want to take this opportunity to thank you very much for all your help; I really couldn't have gotten it back up and running without you. SO THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH, and if theirs every any time you need someone else’s perspective on a problem you run into I'll be glad to help.

[Larry F.]

Hi, Max!
Glad to hear from you again, and glad to hear the beast is running. I had forgotton that you got it as a non-runner, so it is hard to tell what the history and modes of failure might have been. How much did it cost you? How much did the motor rebuild set you back? Just curious . . .

As to the idle going up and down, it sounds like a vacuum leak and/or an airflow meter problem. Double-check that all the rubber boots - including the valve cover gasket and breather - are solid (not cracked or hard) and intact. In an '89 you have fully electronic ignition whose timing is controlled by the fuel injection computer. Another possibility is the fuel pressure regulator, but that is a shot in the dark.

Smoking for a while after a rebuild is very normal. You start with a load of oil or assembly grease on things that needs to burn off, then you have to seat the rings. Have you followed any run-in protocol? At the very least, be very light on the throttle for a few hundred miles, then change the oil and let 'er rip!

Bummer about the tires - glad you got new, safe ones on. There are a number of suspension parts to inspect and suspect - those cars are famous for their upper thrust arm bushings being beat to death, but the main symptom is vibration under light to moderate braking from 65 down to say, 40. Replacing those bushings is a good thing at your milage in any event. If you *do* decide to do the bushings, go for one of the heavier replacements - lots of places sell them, and your car will handle better.

I believe you can get the instrument cluster out without pulling the steering wheel or the airbag, but I am not positive. In the event of pulling the airbag and wheel, start by disconnecting the battery as you describe and all should be well. While you are there, replace all three of the illumination lights. Cheap insurance.

Have fun! Larry F.

[MaxBoost]

Hi Larry I paid $1000 for her and I’m just estimating but the rebuild counting all the parts I have changed probably cost me some ware in the range of $2200-$3000 I’m let you know a more actuate figure once she’s all done and I tally up all my receipts. In my case to get to the instrument panel I did have to pull the steering wheel and air bag I think if they had a tilt wheel feature on this modal it would have been another story.

At the present I’m on the heater core nearly everything that could be pulled out from the dash is out, including the two vertical dash struts, I didn’t mind getting the heater core out too much but once it was out I took it to a radiator shop and had them test it, whitch thankfully tested out fine, however a few of the fins are bent, but I would have to say for the expense of the heater core I’ll still stick with it. Then I discovered where the leak was. It is located well to paint a picture for you would be, I’m sitting on the drivers seat looking at the heater core, there are 3 hoses that connect to the heater core the far left one is a signal metal hose that connects to the core, the middle and right ones are two metal hoses that come out to about the length of the first left hose and then they have a plastic fitting that connects to the end of the 2 metal hoses and then the 2 plastic hoses, top one connects to the middle and the bottom one connects to the right heater core hole, and theirs where my problem is it all seems fine up at the heater core holes, but when I put some water in the system it leaks where the 2 plastic peaces mate to the two metal hoses, I’ve tried several different o rings but none have worked so far so my next idea is to pull out the metal hoses from the car and then be in a better position to test them because I won’t be cramped. So my next problem is disassembling the heater core housing so I can gain access to the hoses, any ideas in how to disassemble the heater core housing?

Thanks
Max

[Larry F.]

Hi, Max.

Great progress on the car overall - thanks for the $$ info - I am always curious, wanting to know if I am paying too much, etc.

I'm afraid I am no help on the heater core problem - but once you get the whole thing out and in front of you, I am sure you will work the problem. I tend to be suspicious of "old plastic", in that many of the 10+ year-old plastic pieces in these cars fail in a number of ways. Just a thought.

Have fun!