Cam Sprocket Instal problem need Help - Page 3

boxercup · boxercup's Garage

Greetings Jeff,

I am glad that you overcame all odds and fixed the problem yourself.

Let BMW take care of the starter and flywheel under warranty.

You have done enough work!

Jeff Williams · 02-22-2004, 05:07 PM

Matt and Scott,
thanks for the part #s I need a copy of that cd also.

Robert, my local dealer ,(200 miles away), will not warrant anything he does not see and then maybe not. It will cost hundreds of $ to take it there and if he doesn't warrant it I'm a captive audience.
Jeff

brad black · 02-23-2004, 02:54 AM

jeff

i apologise for giving you dud advice. i sincerely hope i wasn't the cause of the current drama. i hate it when i screw up like this.

as you say, both cam notches should be at 12 or 6 oclock at any tdc. this is because the cam followers are on opposite sides of the cams as fitted in the lh and rh heads. i forgot all about that. so a cam at overlap in the lh head is at combustion in the rh head, as one set of lifters is on the lh side, the other on the rh.

Jeff Williams · 02-23-2004, 07:10 AM

Brad,
I feel you have no reason to apologise for help you were trying to give. Its my fault not checking the valve adjustment before starting the single lunger into existance.

The fact that you were truly trying to solve my problem from 10,000 miles away is a credit to you, thanks for the try, but its my responsibility not yours. BUT if you do feel like you have to beat yourself up for my mistake,(catholic?), buy me a beer the when you see me.

CYA on the rebound
Jeff

Trevor Rossack · 02-23-2004, 01:17 PM

Great to hear that you have finally sorted out your problems.

You certainly learn more from 'The School Of Hard Knocks' than any other source. There is no way you will ever make that mistake again. !! :-)

You will be laughing about this incident for years to come.

Cheers
TREVOR

Jeff Williams · 02-23-2004, 05:11 PM

Trevor,
True, true, time cures all but the hardest pain. I figure about 9 to 10 hours work to take of the backe end of the bike and put it back together. Scott(see Motoyoyos last thread Rear Wheel Play II), got me thinking about the rear wheel play so I'll be extra careful not to try and change that, just adjust it. I called chicago BMW and they can get all the parts for less than what the (so called) local BMW shop will sell the starter for.
CYA
Jeff

pdonnell · 02-23-2004, 08:08 PM

Just for clarification purposes Jeff. What was the problem with the sprocket install.? Did you get the Lennies Cam Sprockets installed or put back the OEM ones.?

VetteRacer · 02-23-2004, 08:21 PM

Hey Jeff: You know for room and food I'll go out there and help wrench away with ya.

Matt

Jeff Williams · 02-23-2004, 09:10 PM

Pat,
Other than being a dumb***** and not thinking while being tired everything went swell.

. OK here goes, whats in their now is lennies sprockets. their is no problem with them just me. the first time one sprocket slipped when I installed it and locked up one of the cylindars I corrected it and installed them 180 degrees thinking that being off a tooth or two would not cause the problem, it did. Brad put me on the right track but I didn't check the valve clearance and created a single lunger when both side fired at the same time. the kickback from spark and the compression broke the starter,(for sure the pinion and lord knows what else), and at least 3 teeth from the flywheel. I then removed one cam sprocket from the cam and rotated the engine from TDC one revolution back to TDC and realigned the cam sprocket with the cam slot. I then checked the valve clearance and it was perfect. I then started the bike,(lots of metal sounds from the flywheel-starter area), and the bike started and ran smoothly. I stopped the bike and tried to start it again but could not. the bendix spring would not engage the pinion to the flywheel.
Pat I hope this helps , alot of this could have been alverted by not taking short cuts and assuming that its the way it is supposed to be.
BTW are you coming to my neck of the state April 3 weekend?
Jeff

Mattie,
I may take you up on that offer. Ill give you a call Wed or Thurs.
CYA
Jeff

pdonnell · 02-24-2004, 07:13 AM

Wow!! Talk about something going bad to worse. Glad to see the bike is on its way to recovery. At least after this experience you'll know your bike a helluva lot better. Gotta look at the bright side of the school of hard knocks.
.
Let us know what you think of the new sprockets. I personally really liked them.

boxercup · boxercup's Garage

Greetings All in the Dr. Williams Area,

Please be advised that the teeth that Jeff is relating to are in his motorcycle. I admire his abilities to cure this motorcycle related problem himself.

As far as the other teeth in his life, Jeff is the best dentist on both sides of the Nile river. He will never mix up your #3 with your #4.

Just make sure he removes his racing gloves before he works on you.

Jeff Williams · 02-24-2004, 11:39 AM

Pat,
I will keep you in formed. I hope I pass the school of hard knocks. It can be brutal.

Robert,
Thank you for your nice comments. Please be advised that I have a denture with diamonds in between the teeth for you when you come out to the left coast. Oh you have teeth? Don't worry we can remedy that minor problem. Just let me get my insturment ........ All kidding aside, you do a lot of traveling, when ever I talk to you're going somewhere. Thanks again for the help.
CYA
Jeff

Jeff Williams · 03-19-2004, 07:02 PM

Hi all,
update, 8 bent valves, BUT the bike ran, (for a little while). checked the sprockets and they had spun on the cams. when I pulled them off the retaining pin was almost flush with the sprocket. It was close enough to ramp the slot in the cam so that it could come out. Now before anyone gets their underware in a bunch let me say that it is more than likely my fault, but their are some things that may need to be changed so that it doesn't happen to other people. My idea is the the retaining pin on the sprockets is too small and too short. IMO what can happen is that if a person gets the sprockets in on their first try everything will be ok. Down the road, say a few years, if you take them in and out a few times problems may occur. I feel the pin needs to be bigger in diameter because their is to much play in the slot. I'll post my favorate valve which has a beautiful S in it.
Jff

captainasty · 03-20-2004, 03:35 AM

Jeff, now that you know about your valves. Have your guides checked. I sent the head on my girlfreind's car out to be rebuilt becasue it broke one belt and jumped time. It stuck one valve. Well all the intake valves were replaced and the thing smoked like a freight trian. Had to have the guides replaced and all is good. They were still good dia. wise but out of alignment.
Go ahead and have bigger valves put in since you need head work done. The cost will not be any different if you go 1mm bigger on each or a little more if you replace the seats. These bikes take well to head work. San Jose does head work and Leo Goff at Memphis Motor Works.

motoyoyo · 03-20-2004, 04:57 AM

Jeff, ditto what captainasty said. With 8 bent valves there were some heavy duty distorsions going on in your heads. You will almost certainly need the valve seats reground and new guides and seals for all 8 valves. You may as well bite the bullet and consider sending your stuff off to San Jose BMW for some more "performance" upgrades. They can do a high flow head port job as well as bigger valves with new seats , guides and seals.

May as well get a dual plug conversion and top end balance while your at it. Give them a call and see what they recommend as the minimum required first and go from there. Don't rush it half way just to make it for the upcoming ride. You can always ride your airhead and probably still kick everyone's arse.

boxercup · boxercup's Garage

Greetings Jeff,

I am sorry that you had so many problems installing the BP sprockets that I sent you.

Could you please take digital photos of the pins in the sprockets and the cam/pin interface that is ramped and send them to me.

Thanks in advance.

Jeff Williams · 03-20-2004, 06:36 AM

Hi all,
I read my post and want to be clear about this. The bike has been running for about 2weeks with the sprockets in the bike. It was down on power from the stock sprockets and I was concerned that I had kissed the a valve or two. I took it into a friend of mines shop and he did a compression test and leak down test on the bike. cold 117, 115 on the left, 115 twice on the right head. Hot should be 139-150 but we did not want to chance anything eventhough I had ridden the bike about 250 since the cam sprockets had been put in. The leak down test said that their was no leakage up to 120 lbs of pressure. Great we said lets check the sprockets and adjust the valves and be on our way. Sprockets were in the correct position, so we adjusted the valves .006 and .008,( intakes from 5k since last adjustments were a little tight, exhaust alittle loose), new plug and buttoned it up. Paid the man(because at this point I had been second guessing my work and ability), and he walked over to start the bike. The bike would not start. Checked the spark and was getting spark. opened the valve cover and the right sprocket had spun to a different place. pulled the left side and it was ok. The right side valve was stuck open. Pulled the heads one valve bent to an S and the other 7 valves slight wabble on the shaft. the right side pin was almost flush with the sprocket and a ramp on the cam retainer hole. the left side had a ramp and the pin was not as pushed in as the right side.
At this point it must be said the 7 of the bent valves are more than likely my falult. but the 8th valve is not.
Parts have been ordered.

Captainasty,
thanks for suggestion, before I ordered the parts we checked the valve guides springs clip retainers and the end of the cams. all were great. The valve seats need to be touched up just a bit but not bad. I talked with chris at the beginning of the week about his larger intake valves and his new exhaust insert that increased exhaust flow. The valves were about twice as much which was not bad for what they are. I told Chris that I was going to put stock valves into the bike at this time but would get his stuff later on in the year. I told him I wanted to sort things out with the bike first. BTW Chris is very helpful and a great resource,(Thanks for the help Chris if you are lurking out there).

Scott,
You say the nicest things! thank you! I will have the bike running for our April 3rd run. If something unexpected happens...well...AIRHEADS RULE!!!

My bike is just about where I want it to be Scotty my boy, it will just get alittle more tweeking in the near future and will be done.
Any way I'll probly get another bike to specialize my herd further. I'm leaning on a 1976 honda 400F super sport or a Vespa with side car

. Or maybe a 1969 R60US in alpine white.
CYA
Jeff

Jeff Williams · 03-20-2004, 09:13 PM

Hi all,
here are the pictures check out the right side piston.

The right side intake valves

The right side cam end,(cam sprocket round peg fits into square slot.) notice the ramp and where it stopped .

the left side pistons hit also,( my fault)

the left side cam end. which is totally my fault.

and last but not least the flywheel broken teeth,(clutch housing) and starter pinion.

CYA
Jeff

VetteRacer · 03-20-2004, 09:44 PM

Jeff Jeff Jeff... Sure makes me feel good about only dropping a bolt.
JK. Thats some suckee stuff. Since there is possible piston damage I guess 1150kit is on order?

And some new B&Bcams? Throw down some serious HP hehe..
As long as you got it going for the group ride.
Matt

Flatbutt1 · 03-21-2004, 05:22 AM

Jeff
I just have to say that I am in awe of your fearlessness. OK so you screwed the pooch initially but to go into the bikes vitals up to your elbows like this. Damn impressive. I don't know how much mechanical training you;ve had but this is some serious work. I've always been impressed by the depth of expertise on this board and you sir are on the short list of those in the know!