The greatest puzzle (R12S idle) - Page 2

throttlemeister · throttlemeister's Garage

Peter, this is probably completely useless to you, but the K1300S similar problems. Dealers would try anything, and nothing would fix it. Until BMW came with a software update of the BMS-K.

Sounds like the R12S ECU can use a bit of updating too?

Do you have the latest software in it?

peter f · 06-24-2010, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by throttlemeister

Peter, this is probably completely useless to you, but the K1300S similar problems. Dealers would try anything, and nothing would fix it. Until BMW came with a software update of the BMS-K.

Sounds like the R12S ECU can use a bit of updating too?

Do you have the latest software in it?

Yes, or at least the one related with the R12Sl. Dealer N1/N2/Nn said that there's newer editions around but they only concern other models.

That said, I had for a very sort period (3 months) a K12R that spend his life mostly connected with GT-1 in a fruitless effort to fix things that nobody knew a thing about...until I found someone brave enough (a naif cousin) and got rid of it.

If my nerves are OK (doubtful) I'll try this weekend to inquire the motor with a borrowed GT-911 and I'll post here whatever that yellow gizmo is capable to upload (some excel lists I've been told, don't ask what they contain).

Mysteriously my RR works OK - but never is too late with fine German engineering (so to speak). I'm thinking to tour Sahara with the thing (dressed appropriately - Lawrence Of Arabia style etc etc).

AZ-J · AZ-J's Garage

Hi,

Maybe I got this wrong but, but doesn't this thread seemingly solve the problem?

R12S idle problems fixed!! Hard Accel Problems fixed!!!!

peter f · 06-24-2010, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AZ-J

Hi,

Maybe I got this wrong but, but doesn't this thread seemingly solve the problem?

R12S idle problems fixed!! Hard Accel Problems fixed!!!!

Hi,

No I'm afraid since the fuel system (as a whole) has been checked and checked...and checked. Plenty of time: almost 2 years this problem tantalize my nerves...I mean when I ride the thing, a fact that occurs rather rarely these days (because in addition to the idle issue the crappy OEM friction plate is kaput and RB Racing...well you know their "virtual" solutions on that matter).

Moral: it's all about karma.

JonyRR · 06-24-2010, 07:49 AM

in BMW cars of the mid 90's variety, the Idle air controller gets carboned up and needs cleaned with electrical cleaner.
then after that to cure a 'hunting idle' problem, the TPS sensor is replaced.

what does tha have to do with an R12S? dunno, but I threw it out there. It fixed my problem on my BMW cage.

peter f · 06-27-2010, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntonLargiader

If you have a scanner (like a GS-911) you could observe some of the outputs such as injection time.

OK Anton, the gizmo found, connected (no ride and data logging possible), Idle actuators calibrated, then talked to Big Brother and reported the following (I can't attach here the xls file - this suffix is not accepted in this Noble Forum).

Some generic data first:

Then this:

and that:

and something not that good:

ditto:

peter f · 06-27-2010, 09:09 AM

PS: Idle actuator cyl 2 chart is 100% identical to cyl 1, meaning that at least the super gizmo calibrated these ugly things.

AntonLargiader · 06-27-2010, 09:16 AM

Save the data in CSV or some 'safe' format.

The part I'm looking at is between 50 and 60 where it runs the RPM back up to 1400. You have a succession of low values on the O2 sensors, the idle actuators ratchet up, what happens to the injection duration at that time? If you look at all of the numbers together, you might see what started it.

The O2 results are normal, in the general sense. They naturally swing wildly. But the only time they stop swinging is in that 50-60 section where the idle jumps again.

peter f · 06-27-2010, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntonLargiader

Save the data in CSV or some 'safe' format.

The part I'm looking at is between 50 and 60 where it runs the RPM back up to 1400. You have a succession of low values on the O2 sensors, the idle actuators ratchet up, what happens to the injection duration at that time? If you look at all of the numbers together, you might see what started it.

The O2 results are normal, in the general sense. They naturally swing wildly. But the only time they stop swinging is in that 50-60 section where the idle jumps again.

Silly me > here's the full xls from that csv (with charts et all):

Download log 2010-06-27.xls, upload your files and earn money. 2010-06-27.xls

JonyRR · 06-27-2010, 10:50 AM

I have the answer!

HSR 42 mikunis

simple

peter f · 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntonLargiader

what happens to the injection duration at that time? If you look at all of the numbers together, you might see what started it.

Well, I don't think that Injection duration could be the cause for these RPM irregularities...which makes me suspicious for the usual cause in similar situations: that crappy TPS thing.

It's a shame that I can't ride AND log some stuff, because the great differences occur during ride/stop/ride/etc etc.

MoTec M4/400 anyone? (I'm that close to discard that ugly BMS-K - not to mention RapidWorksWhenItWorks- and start from a clean sheet)

peter f · 06-28-2010, 05:24 AM

here's a combined rpm/injection graph

PS: if anyone can explain the weird Throttle Valve Position values...

AntonLargiader · 06-28-2010, 06:06 AM

That's getting kind of interesting. At the times that the idle goes up, the BMS is decreasing the injection times and raising the stepper value (I don't know if that means more air or less air). However, both of those are outputs. I think we need to look at inputs to figure out what the BMS is responding to. I can't tell if the BMS is responding to the increase in idle speed or if it's causing it in response to something else, but it sort of looks like it's responding to it.

Inputs would be air temp, engine temp, O2, RPM, knock. Do you have temperature logs?

The O2 sensor voltage drops down very low during that time, which is lean. Is it possible that you have an air leak? I wish I knew which way the stepper worked. If the BMS is decreasing the fuel and air, then it's probably responding to an outside influence.

Have you checked the fuel pressure?

BTW I also don't understand those throttle position values, but it seemto be going between zero and full. Could it be as simple as a bad TPS? Or bad wiring to the TPS, or a problem within the BMS?

peter f · 06-28-2010, 07:01 AM

Anton,

Yes, the fuel pressure is checked.

Note: this log is performed with bike hot (to approximate the ride/stop/ride/stop etc etc...but that's nonsense, only an "on-board" GS911 when riding could "emulate" the real-life thing).

With regard the full aperture of data that the gizmo provides:

With regard temperature data (but I don't have a 2nd engine head temp sensor - I made a post a year ago and several others said the same):

With regard knock values (a VERY odd reading due to differences that can't be explained - log captured at idle etc etc):

peter f · 06-28-2010, 07:03 AM

Yikes > engine/air temp legend text are the other way round (obviously).

AntonLargiader · 06-28-2010, 07:12 AM

Would be nice to have an idle log from a non-problematic bike!

peter f · 06-28-2010, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntonLargiader

Would be nice to have an idle log from a non-problematic bike!

Indeed ...but...er...a R12S in Athens? (another one, that is). that's the difficult part of the story - I doubt if they exist more than 5 in Greece, no clue about the owners.

But...wait... Dealer N2 said that someone has a Colgate R12S for sale.

Cross fingers.

AntonLargiader · 06-28-2010, 07:45 AM

If you plot the Cylinder 2 Lambda control factor against the RPM, it REALLY looks like that correction is driving the RPM changes. It would be interesting to look at it vs the stepper motor position but (and I don't understand this) it looks like the two steppers stay synchronized at all times. I would expect to see each of them moving separately.

blkduc1 · 06-28-2010, 07:51 AM

Sounds like what mine does, when it does it, is very similar.

ANd you can feel it start to idle rough, like one cylinder starts to miss, or it gets weak or something. Could the action of the two spark plugs per cylinder working together somehow be affecting the smoothness of idle?

Sure would like to find the solution. ... Could it actually be the fuel pump, as that previous post suggests?

Keep us posted, Peter f.
Perhaps someone here could run the same graphs you did on a flawless bike? Would that be comparable?
dp

peter f · 06-28-2010, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntonLargiader

It would be interesting to look at it vs the stepper motor position but (and I don't understand this) it looks like the two steppers stay synchronized at all times. I would expect to see each of them moving separately.

Here's the combined data that you've asked for.

PS: the super GS gizmo did a sync on these ugly idle actuators. Er...I mean...some "lock sync", he he.

PS: The idle actuators (valves) are a kind of "piston" (with conical end) driven via an ugly mini step motor (Mexico here I come, these things are NOT made in Germany). The cone on it's lowest position blocks the auxiliary air passage. Thus it's reasonable to assume that 0 equals the "block air" state and 50 equals the "max air" state.

PS: of course buying the GS gizmo is the only way to trace the problem across a meaningful operational range. I mean, who with his right mind could borrow me the GS for a week for some "on-board" logs? (wife could hold the PC).

PS: if anyone has a healthy R12S and the GS 911 thing...well people give me some help (a similar idle log report, that is) and I'll give you no less than 3 mobile phones belonging to some super hot brunettes in Greece (ideal for wild vacations Curfu, Myconos, Creta, Rhodes etc etc - leave wife at home)