Another chink in the armor of teutonic engineering superiority

[signit98]

Originally Posted by pwillikers

VW lied. It is not clean (how unclean is yet to be determined). When it is "fixed", it will likely get less mileage and less performance (also as yet unquantified). I have asked VW to buy it back and I suspect they'll be compelled to do so.

The sky is falling, the SKY IS FALLING!!!!

Now the numbers will be embellished to the other side. A car that gets 40 mpg, is inherently cleaner than any gas guzzling V8 truck or Soccer Mom SUV or Minivan at 15 to 20 mpg. I don't care how much you twist and turn...

I am still happy with my TDi and I still feel good about a vehicle that gets 40+ mpg. Again, I don't see ANYONE all up in arms over school busses, trucks, and any vehicle that gets around 15 mpg or less.

Until then....

[BikerMiker]

Originally Posted by pwillikers

I am astonished by Martin Winterkorn's conduct. He bet a life's work, his personal legacy, in fact an entire company and the lives its employees, on a hubris inspired cheat. Every government is pissed and lining up to get a piece of VW. Even Texas has partnered with other states, including California (which may be a first), in a class action suit against VW. There have been over 300 federal class action suits filed by independent attorneys that have had "no problem" lining up clients. The VW dealers have banded together and are suing VW. How this plays out is anyone's guess but it will be very painful and seriously hurt VW.

I am also astonished by many of the positions espoused in this thread. Are you guys science ignoring disbelievers in greenhouse gas inspired global warming? Those wacky climate scientists are at it again!

What will you do to mitigate the consequences? Wait for others to act? Rely on "market" forces to divine a path? Piss in the wind and hope for the best? Enact and enforce regulations?

I own a TDI wagon that I bought new in '11. I bought it because it was advertised (certified?) as one of the cleanest if not the cleanest car on the market, it got great fuel mileage (greener still) and it had enough torque to pull shiit around.

VW lied. It is not clean (how unclean is yet to be determined). When it is "fixed", it will likely get less mileage and less performance (also as yet unquantified). I have asked VW to buy it back and I suspect they'll be compelled to do so.

I feel for the ~600K VW employees and those in ancillary VW organizations, like dealerships, the vast majority of whom I'd wager are honest, possessing high integrity and honorable intentions. They will all suffer mightily.

This is about NOx emissions not CO2. Fact is that we have gotten the air a lot cleaner in the last 40 or so years but fuel mileage is only partially better due to the ineffiencies of pollution controls. So when someone gets their VW "corrected", if it costs them mileage, they will in fact be putting MORE CO2 into the air than they used to. The more C you burn, the more CO and CO2 you will create.

[John Lyon]

Originally Posted by BikerMiker

This is about NOx emissions not CO2. Fact is that we have gotten the air a lot cleaner in the last 40 or so years but fuel mileage is only partially better due to the ineffiencies of pollution controls. So when someone gets their VW "corrected", if it costs them mileage, they will in fact be putting MORE CO2 into the air than they used to. The more C you burn, the more CO and CO2 you will create.

As I recall, the single biggest improvement in air quality was due to the removal of lead from gasoline; everything else has been rather incremental in comparison.

BTW, isn't it well known that factories tune vehicles to run very lean at the rpm that vehicles are tested at. When you consider that vehicles only occasionally operate at that rpm, it makes this issue somewhat grayer to me. Sounds like VW simply programmed in that lean running and then returned to normal A/F mixture for every day operations. Broke the law, yes, but actual physical effect on air pollution, global warming, etc., rather questionable.

[viggen]

Originally Posted by John Lyon

As I recall, the single biggest improvement in air quality was due to the removal of lead from gasoline; everything else has been rather incremental in comparison.

BTW, isn't it well known that factories tune vehicles to run very lean at the rpm that vehicles are tested at. When you consider that vehicles only occasionally operate at that rpm, it makes this issue somewhat grayer to me. Sounds like VW simply programmed in that lean running and then returned to normal A/F mixture for every day operations. Broke the law, yes, but actual physical effect on air pollution, global warming, etc., rather questionable.

My thoughts exactly, is the whole "performance chip" industry not an indication of how EVERYONE has been playing this game since they began? Even carbed bikes used to have "flat spots" which was for the same reason as far as I recall. The same was done for noise regulation on bikes, was it not? We are all guilty in this one, they just have more money

[1100s nut]

Originally Posted by AZ-Twin

I'd like to see the actual numbers for a properly operating TDI, and one of the TDIs with the clever coding, and see how much exhaust emissions really are put into the environment, compared to say, a 2005 Dodge Ram 2500, or a Kenworth. Someone needs to put this whole thing into perspective. When you go 45-50 miles on a gallon a Kerosene, it seems to me that by definition emissions would be lower, but i'm not a chemist.

The real question..when to buy VW stock!

Rob, you saved me from writing this, agree. VW will be fine, the guy involved, he will pay, I hope. I am much more concerned about things like what Japan's Tataka airbag company has done (deaths) and GM key problems that resulted in (many deaths)

[smddanny]

THANK YOU Williker! Somebody has principles, integrity and fortitude!

Originally Posted by pwillikers

I am astonished by Martin Winterkorn's conduct. He bet a life's work, his personal legacy, in fact an entire company and the lives its employees, on a hubris inspired cheat. Every government is pissed and lining up to get a piece of VW. Even Texas has partnered with other states, including California (which may be a first), in a class action suit against VW. There have been over 300 federal class action suits filed by independent attorneys that have had "no problem" lining up clients. The VW dealers have banded together and are suing VW. How this plays out is anyone's guess but it will be very painful and seriously hurt VW.

I am also astonished by many of the positions espoused in this thread. Are you guys science ignoring disbelievers in greenhouse gas inspired global warming? Those wacky climate scientists are at it again!

What will you do to mitigate the consequences? Wait for others to act? Rely on "market" forces to divine a path? Piss in the wind and hope for the best? Enact and enforce regulations?

I own a TDI wagon that I bought new in '11. I bought it because it was advertised (certified?) as one of the cleanest if not the cleanest car on the market, it got great fuel mileage (greener still) and it had enough torque to pull shiit around.

VW lied. It is not clean (how unclean is yet to be determined). When it is "fixed", it will likely get less mileage and less performance (also as yet unquantified). I have asked VW to buy it back and I suspect they'll be compelled to do so.

I feel for the ~600K VW employees and those in ancillary VW organizations, like dealerships, the vast majority of whom I'd wager are honest, possessing high integrity and honorable intentions. They will all suffer mightily.

[Chris Canning]

Originally Posted by smddanny

THANK YOU Williker! Somebody has principles, integrity and fortitude!

Yea I'd have plenty of those as well at $2 a gallon but we pay $8 so running anything that does less than 40mpg is impractical and when it comes to priorities it's MPG.

But you have to smile at all the ambulance chasers that come out of the cracks in the wood work in these situations of course all done in the name of principle

And yea I've already had my letter from VW about fixing the car well if that means loosing either performance or MPG it won't be done not on mine anyway,their are far bigger polluters in the world than VW,but hey their an easy target so lets try for a freebie.

[Nitro]

You wonna be clean? Get on a bicycle. Oh wait, it might increase your heart rate and hence you will burn more O2 and produce more CO2...

EPA standards are unrealistic, you cannot have low emission, power, and longevity at the same time.

I said it a million times in here: If I were to run airplanes engines the way stock vehicles engines are run, I'd be landing dead stick every other flight with holes in every piston!

The solution to the problem is not reducing emissions on vehicles; it is to find alternative power sources else where. And please keep your idiotic electric cars and hybrids to yourselves. Electricity does not like to be stored, period, it needs to run.

I live in zombie-land Florida, the 'Sunshine State'. You don't see a single solar panel if you look with a colonoscopy scope! About we start covering the roof of every single building and house in the US with solar panels? Just by doing that we can get rid of all the catalytic convertors in existence, run engines the way they are supposed to be run for power and longevity and still pollute way less than now.

Vehicles' pollution only accounts for a very small portion of total pollution, look it up, wikipedia is free.

I don't blame VW at all, everyone cheats, they just got cough but at least they did not need any bail-out...

PS
This thread is idiotic.

[1100s nut]

Originally Posted by smddanny

THANK YOU Williker! Somebody has principles, integrity and fortitude!

I hope you are not implying that the rest of are lacking of principles, integrity and fortitude. Again no one has died as a result of this very stupid decision. Can't say the same for the GM key issue and the Takata airbag issue.

I have a friend in a very high position in the automotive world and he explained it to me. Said most other mfg. knew something was up with the low nit. Ox. Numbers they were achieving without the use of Urea. Really clever what they did.....also very stupid. When the OB computer sensed it was getting tested it richened the fuel to bring nit. Oxides down to pass. 10 high level executives are on the way out now with probably more to follow. VW just this year passed Toyota and the largest auto maker in the world by volume. That will probably turn around. Their could be some good that comes from this in time.

[PFFOG]

Originally Posted by Nitro

You wonna be clean? Get on a bicycle. Oh wait, it might increase your heart rate and hence you will burn more O2 and produce more CO2...

EPA standards are unrealistic, you cannot have low emission, power, and longevity at the same time.

I said it a million times in here: If I were to run airplanes engines the way stock vehicles engines are run, I'd be landing dead stick every other flight with holes in every piston!

The solution to the problem is not reducing emissions on vehicles; it is to find alternative power sources else where. And please keep your idiotic electric cars and hybrids to yourselves. Electricity does not like to be stored, period, it needs to run.

I live in zombie-land Florida, the 'Sunshine State'. You don't see a single solar panel if you look with a colonoscopy scope! About we start covering the roof of every single building and house in the US with solar panels? Just by doing that we can get rid of all the catalytic convertors in existence, run engines the way they are supposed to be run for power and longevity and still pollute way less than now.

Vehicles' pollution only accounts for a very small portion of total pollution, look it up, wikipedia is free.

I don't blame VW at all, everyone cheats, they just got cough but at least they did not need any bail-out...

PS
This thread is idiotic.

What he said, gas/diesel can't be beat for energy on a small space. Fixed energy needs need to be renewable or clean (natural Gas, nuclear )

[JRMSR]

Originally Posted by pwillikers View Post
I am astonished by Martin Winterkorn's conduct. He bet a life's work, his personal legacy, in fact an entire company and the lives its employees, on a hubris inspired cheat. Every government is pissed and lining up to get a piece of VW. Even Texas has partnered with other states, including California (which may be a first), in a class action suit against VW. There have been over 300 federal class action suits filed by independent attorneys that have had "no problem" lining up clients. The VW dealers have banded together and are suing VW. How this plays out is anyone's guess but it will be very painful and seriously hurt VW.

I am also astonished by many of the positions espoused in this thread. Are you guys science ignoring disbelievers in greenhouse gas inspired global warming? Those wacky climate scientists are at it again! (So I have to ask, are you one of those; PETA supporting, Yule Gibbons bark eaten, the sky is falling, eco do gooders or just one of them god like, climate changers)

What will you do to mitigate the consequences? (Not a damn thing, except) Wait for others to act?(Vote the wacko politicians out of office who insist they can actually change the climate!) Rely on "market" forces to divine a path? Piss in the wind and hope for the best? (That's all you're doing. Boy, did you drink the "Kool Aid" and go back for more!) Enact and enforce regulations?

I own a TDI wagon that I bought new in '11. I bought it because it was advertised (certified?) as one of the cleanest if not the cleanest car on the market, it got great fuel mileage (greener still) and it had enough torque to pull shiit around.

VW lied. It is not clean (how unclean is yet to be determined). When it is "fixed", it will likely get less mileage and less performance (also as yet unquantified). I have asked VW to buy it back and I suspect they'll be compelled to do so. (NO THEY WON'T, that's simply wishful thinking on your part.)

I feel for the ~600K VW employees and those in ancillary VW organizations, like dealerships, the vast majority of whom I'd wager are honest, possessing high integrity and honorable intentions. They will all suffer mightily

So no one modifies there Volkswagen with aftermarket performance parts and tuning, right! Just how naive are you exactly?

CO2 is a by product of O2 and emitted by plant and human alike. Without CO2 we wouldn't be here.

Let see, "carbon credits" are the biggest fiddle that has ever been perpetrated on the world. Buy enough "carbon credits" and you can pollute as much as you want ie, China, Middle East etc but no one has balked about it have they. We the USA, are less than 1% of the total emission problem of the world today. You need to get your facts straight.

This is about NOx emissions not CO2

THIS!!!

I hope you are not implying that the rest of are lacking of principles, integrity and fortitude

Yes, he was but then there are some people who open their pie hole before they engage their brain. Here's you sign (cue;open mouth, insert foot!)

[Deans BMW]

Originally Posted by JRMSR

So no one modifies there Volkswagen with aftermarket performance parts and tuning, right!

Just how naive are you exactly? CO2 is a by product of O2 and emitted by plant and human alike. Without CO2 we wouldn't be here.

Let see, "carbon credits" are the biggest fiddle that has ever been perpetrated on the world. Buy enough "carbon credits" and you can pollute as much as you want ie, China, Middle East etc but no one has balked about it have they. We the USA, are less than 1% of the total emission problem of the world today. You need to get your facts straight.

THIS!!!


Yes, he was but then there are some people who open their pie hole before they engage their brain. Here's you sign (cue;open mouth, insert foot!)

Agree 100% with your answers and comments.

[RIQUE]

Just how naive are you exactly? We the USA, are less than 1% of the total emission problem of the world today. You need to get your facts straight.
[/QUOTE]

I understand that the VW issue is about NOx emmisions but stating that the US is responsible for 1% of CO2 emssions show a real lack of knowledge of whats going on...

[op48no1]

Originally Posted by RIQUE

I understand that the VW issue is about NOx emmisions but stating that the US is responsible for 1% of CO2 emssions show a real lack of knowledge of whats going on...

I was just in the middle of writing a post to say the same thing.

Climate change is real, it's here, and it's already causing serious problems. It's too late to stop the future effects of "baked-in" GHG emissions. But ignorance and hysteria (on either side) don't help.

-Henry

[JRMSR]

When all else fails, manipulate the data. I can go to nearly any eco-friendly, tree hugger website and find similar, misrepresented and misquoted data. Those who need to believe in something will always find something to cling too even if it's misrepresented or an out and out lie. What you have displayed is just more proof of how gullible you actually are. Naive was a misquote on my part, it's more akin to incapable or enable to comprehend. Additionally per capita, you live in one of the most polluted south American countries.

I could post totally opposing data reflecting exactly what I've stated but it would do nothing to prove or convince you otherwise. So, I'm not going to bother. I'll just say, "you are totally misinformed and can't comprehend even the difference between NOx and CO2 emissions." This has already been demonstrated.

Now do try to keep on topic and put your tree hugging aside, along with the eco nut theory on global warming. You still own and drive a car, motorcycle, along with an electricity and gas bill. At least I'm not a hypocrite, like yourself. When you go totally off the grid, I might listen. Until then, I'm not interested in the left wing eco, Obama, or "Greening of of the World," ideology in the very least. End of story!

And Henry, crawl back in your corner. Climate change is inevitable and has more to do with our planets position in relationship to the Sun over a span of centuries. We wobble in rotation and our orbit around the Sun is more elliptical, not circular in proximity to the sun. This motion dictates our climate and it's changes over the centuries, not decades. Besides, we have no idea or control over our weather. We have no capacity or power to change the weather in any way shape or form. Only those with the hubris and idiocy to think they can, are stupid enough to believe it's possible.

So climate change, either a trend to warming or cooling is primarily dictated by our position in relationship to the sun. Add in; volcanic activity and a few other minor climatic conditions (on a universal scale) and it could increase or decrease by a few degrees. This is not theoretical climatology, but proven Cosmology. We have only been recording global weather patterns for a century and even less with any understanding. In the span of earths life, (so far) this is a drop in the ocean plain and simple. However, I wouldn't expect either of you to attempt an understanding with your solid factual scientific knowledge or understanding. Just stick with the "Chicken Little Theory" you'd be far more correct

Oh yea, the 25.6% you quoted is; South America and Mexico, funny how you forgot to mention this information from the same eco-website you quoted.

[BikerMiker]

I'm confused. Are you saying that the pie chart is incorrect or are you saying that global warming is a myth or are you say anthropological global warming is a myth? I don't understand. That pie chart might be an exaggeration but so is 1%.

There's a truth in all these arguments, for and against, and some probably more true than others but I think folks on all these fronts have certainly confused and confounded the issue to the point where it's just background noise. Nobody can make an argument on either side of the debate that can't be rebuked and quite frankly I'm sick of the polarization and the religious fervor.

But the facts are:

1. Global average temperature has been rising
2. CO2 levels are rising.
3. Correlation does not prove causation.

That being said, I think erring on the side of caution would be advisable but I don't like **** being rammed down throats like carbon taxes. This approach to fix the problem never sounds like anything more than attempts to fleece more money from the innocent people who never did anything wrong besides trying to live. On the other hand certain carbon taxes may have the unintended consequence in accelerating the development of carbon neutral fuels like hydrogen.

In the end, like everything else, it seems like it's all about money, who gets it, who keeps it and not about the weather.

[JRMSR]

You're closer than you know, it's all about the money and the "green industry!"

False information to further a false cause is; worse than none at all.

Hydrogen is a great alternative and was shelved by the industry over 3 decades ago. However, until the industry can find out how to control it safely and make a profit, it isn't going to happen. Look at the price and availability of a hybrid, fuel cell or all electric vehicle. They're at least 1/3 to 1/2 again higher then their internal combustion brothers. Whatever happened to affordable "Solar Energy?" It's neither affordable or widely available to the middle class, who comprise the highest majority of earners. The average home installation cost is over $25K and has to be amortized over 20 years to pay for itself. This is not an off the grid system either.

You want people to take notice and change, then make these alternatives cheaper then the current means. It's not going to happen, it's all about greedy self-interested industrialists looking for future ways to make monstrous profits and totally void of making any effective change in the way we conduct our everyday lives.

It's all a bunch of eco-crap!

[JRMSR]

However, all of this has no bearing on the topic at hand and I'm far to disinterested in such nonsense to actually care.

To create an industry, you have to prove and create a need. What better way to change a direction of the oil and auto industry, then to create the eco-friendly, "chicken little theory."

VW created programming to exacerbate a flaw in the data. They did nothing more than and in actuality less, then entire energy industry has been doing to us for decades and getting away with it.

[op48no1]

I'm sorry, JRMSR. I think you're full of merde and a connard. Get back to me when and if you have something objective to say.

Forgive me, I'm an electrical engineer and not entirely incapable of thinking skeptically.

-Henry

Edit: God, I hate imbéciles.

[JRMSR]

incapable of thinking skeptically

.......... I might add or cognitively. God sure does, especially since you felt compelled to post your profession and attempt(optimal word) to solidify and impress everyone......but let's keep him out of this one shall we.. (SNAFU) BAWHAHAHA. Makes no matter, it only proves what I've been saying all along.

I've stated the objective and the obvious, not the SOS you eco-nuts are so bent and determined to convince everyone of. I see so, it's easier to discriminate against those who don't believe the same way you do, interesting. Have you ever heard of the Greek word; glykó koutalioú, which is akin to the Greek word; synti̱ri̱tikós which means conservative.

French, everyone hates the French!

Now back to your corner Henry, halloween is fast approaching and you wouldn't want to miss your chance at some candy.,