Another chink in the armor of teutonic engineering superiority

[JonyRR]

The VW emissions cheating scandal is still heating up. Imagine that, a cheat map for emissions testing. It's already made countless lawyers erect or wet, choose your gender.
This one's baaaad because it's so obviously deliberate. I wonder why they thought they'd never get caught.....lots of heads rolling in R&D and compliance. It might even be the end of VW as it's currently known. Unmoglich!

[CaptainReza]

Before cheating any system you need to have intimate knowledge of how the system works....I guess you know where I'm going with this.

[Martin Glasser]

Originally Posted by CaptainReza

Before cheating any system you need to have intimate knowledge of how the system works....I guess you know where I'm going with this.

Why the heck would that be? Did tommy Edison have intimate knowledge of tungsten or the Noble Gases? I don't think so, Fire up the magneto and go for it!

[Moybin]

Martin - I'm currently trying to learn the Ruby programming language at the request of my adult son (so maybe dad can help write code for his company) and can say that what goes on inside those chips is a LOT more complex than memorizing the properties of tungsten and noble gasses.

Little Tommie Edison had is easy...

[BMWR502]

As an owner of one of affected vehicles ('10 Audi A3 2.0 TDI). I am less than thrilled about the most likely "solution" being an ECU re-flash. With the re-flashed ECU running the emissions components 100%, fuel economy (42 hwy, and the main reason for purchase) and performance (140 hp/236 ft-lbs) are very likely to decrease. There is also a good chance these emissions components were designed knowing they would not be used this heavily, and there for part life will diminish and maintenance costs will go up. Having purchased the car 4 years and 75k mi from new, it is unlikely that I will have to take much of a hit when it comes time to sell, but that is yet another suck.

As a "car guy" and engineer (avoiding the ethical/environmental issues of what they did), I find the "cheat" software rather interesting. Having all the modern electronic systems that provided the inputs that were used to put the ECU into a testing status, and the strict, known conditions for which official gov't testing was performed clearly gave them enough confidence that they would get away with it (still too risky to have actually been done IMHO). From what I have read, Bosch supplied the ECU/software to VW/Audi, and I'm sure there was a disclosure that stated something to the effect that it was for "testing purposes only, not intended for production vehicles" to cover their a$$es. But, I'm still curious to see if this turns into another Ford/Firestone debacle. Was what they did deceitful/unethical/illegal/wrong... yes, of course. But interesting none-the-less.

[ckcarr]

I find I don't even care anymore.

I feel like I expect nothing less than cheating and lying from businesses, the government, and any others walking the earth. Maybe it's always been that way.

[jrsbike]

I heard an interview with Bob Lutz who said that the fines in the US, Europe and everywhere else will run into the billions and that the German government will have to bail VW out. Didn't Porsche have a major problem with a timing gear that was blowing 911 engines up? Its an unfortunate black mark for diesels that the green people will jump on. I hope VW will continue the work on their diesel/electric hybrid which is a format that has always interested me.

[anotheroldrider]

OK, BMWR502 hit the nail on the head. If you owned one of these vehicles, would you take it back knowing you'll get less mileage and less performance when it's returned?

[SergioK]

Originally Posted by anotheroldrider

OK, BMWR502 hit the nail on the head. If you owned one of these vehicles, would you take it back knowing you'll get less mileage and less performance when it's returned?

Well there's a seemingly growing group of people who voluntarily buy/drive the Toyota Prius so...

[JimMoore]

Originally Posted by anotheroldrider

OK, BMWR502 hit the nail on the head. If you owned one of these vehicles, would you take it back knowing you'll get less mileage and less performance when it's returned?

I sure as hell wouldn't. I wonder if there will be any kind of forced compliance? I could see it in CA.

As a note, I'm sure all the tuner car guys are thinking this is the most awesome thing they have ever heard of. because it's pretty cool in a "screw the man" kind of way.

[kroberts]

As an old Phantom Phixer I got a kick out of this...

[DPG]

Its bad form to be sure but I don't see why everyone is so surprised. Its long been known that fuel consumption figures for a vehicle/engine/etc given to the regulatory body are generated by equipment running simulations in a lab under the very best of flattering conditions. It follows that the emissions figures would be skewed in some way too.

But that's irrelevant. Completely missing the elephantine point.

Try this for size - Think of a sport, or an industry, or even a charity, that competes under very tight controls. Got one? Good. Now think about how hard that sport, or industry, or even charity, looks at that rule book and think about ways to get around the rules so that sport, or industry, or even charity can maximize its performance. Looking for loopholes to let them succeed when the rulebook says 'No'. It's completely normal behavior for everyone. Poncy city types would probably have some management babble-speak for it. Competitive Advantage maybe or Partial Regulatory Compliance perhaps.

Still not got it?

Ok, I'll bring out the obvious one. Taxes. If your accountant isn't on top line, looking for ways to make sure you paid less tax, but still stay in compliance with the law then they'd not be doing their jobs well. Certainly beeeellions of people around the world actively looks for ways to avoid paying any tax at all and not get caught for doing so.

And all that means is that VW saw a loophole and exploited it to try and drive sales in a new market with some of the tightest emission controls in the world with some of the better testing and monitoring regimes in the world. And a country that traditionally doesn't like diesel passenger cars either. Talk about not getting the hint.

Personally I don't like what VW have done. Its arrogant and deceitful. I don't really like diesel as a fuel either and I don't like how my wonderful government has twisted its policy to promote the dirty, nasty, weak, greasy, waste product as a passenger road fuel over the last 30 years and encouraged the car makers to slow development of petrol engines in order to priorities the horrible stuff. But I'm not surprised that VW were bending the software to pass the test. The just got caught is all.

Martin Winterkorn said he was sorry. And he probably is. Sorry that they got caught.

[JRMSR]

Originally Posted by ckcarr

I find I don't even care anymore.

I feel like I expect nothing less than cheating and lying from businesses, the government, and any others walking the earth. Maybe it's always been that way.

Amen!

I think we've gone way overboard on the "Greening of America!" We are just a cog in a great big machine that isn't running in sync anyway. Consider China, the Middle East and most Asian countries. We, are 10% of the total hydrocarbon emissions of the world. I say, when everyone else starts playing, then we should jump in. It's already known that any further reductions from the US will have absolutely no effect on the environment but will have a very large negative impact on our already poor economic state. As we sing a verse of; "We Are the World!"

Hey but who cares, we can continue to adopt new emission regulations but no one else give a big rats arse.

Everyone knows this little issue with VW will dissipate and disappear as quickly as it was discovered. However, we all know it will effect our pockets directly in mpg, just to meet governmental goals that have no bearing on the rest of the worlds emission output.

[signit98]

I would still not give up any of my TDi's... and if the stupid EPA was really so environmentally conscious, there wouldn't be a SINGLE school bus on the road today.

Aside from that, I think that the ingenuity they applied was pretty brilliant... especially, given the simplicity with which it was done.

When you are dealing with clueless people...

If it wasn't for a 3rd party research study (German and US combined, mind you) that would have NEVER seen daylight... especially, since that generation of engine has been phased out for over a year.

[JRMSR]

Originally Posted by signit98

I would still not give up any of my TDi's... and if the stupid EPA was really so environmentally conscious, there would be a SINGLE school bus on the road today.

Aside form that, I think that the ingenuity they applied was pretty brilliant... especially, given the simplicity with which it was done.

When you are dealing with clueless people...

If it wasn't for a 3rd party research study (German and US combined, mind you) that would have NEVER seen daylight... especially, since that generation of engine has been phased out for over a year.

Agreed, I too think it was brilliant.

[Moybin]

People cheat. "What if..." is in every engineer's mind - by education! Governments expect obedience (!) and are foolish enough to think the scofflaws will tell them voluntarily that they cheated. That's because gov't people are average people otherwise they would be working for a living, not pushing paper for the gov't.

Lets see... FIFA, Pro bicycle doping, Olympic commitee bribes, shoddy Chinese parts - the list is endless. CKCarr has it spot-on - assume everyone is dog-meat until they prove otherwise; Engineers call it "worst case scenario".

[PFFOG]

Originally Posted by signit98

......

Aside from that, I think that the ingenuity they applied was pretty brilliant... especially, given the simplicity with which it was done.

When you are dealing with clueless people...
.

Agree, my take from the beginning, simple and brilliant at the same time, and customers got cars that ran better.

[RIQUE]

Vídeo de humor: musical de la crisis de Volkswagen

This video is hilarious. Sorry for the language but I´m sure you´ll get it.

[JonyRR]

Rique;
that was hilarious..I understand spanish much better than I can speak it.

The F4's were great as well.

I bet this turns into a political football in this country; It's easier to nuke VW as it's 'foreign-owned'. Smart people do dumb things.

[bradzdotcom]

some of you nascar fans might know which guy said it, but it seems to be true most times:
"if ya ain't cheatin', you ain't winnin'."