240v question

[911_Dude]

Within the last year Ive known two friends from work that had their house burn down. Separate incidents. The amount of ass pain involved is not to be taken lightly. The idea of the commercial unit seems forced, very impractical and outright unsafe. Buy the dishwasher and resell it for a profit. Get a nice 110v dishwasher and you will wonder why you ever considered all this madness. We just got a GE profile unit and its amazing. I wouldnt want a loud steaming commercial unit.

[jyl]

Measured and found acceptable location for subpanel. Looks like NEC requires the panel be located in a clear area 30" wide and 78" from floor to top of area with 36" working clearance in front of panel and clearance to open panel door to 90 degrees, no water lines or other non-electrical systems in that working area.

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by dad911

NO NO NO... WIRE SIZE!!!!!!

Also need 4 wire to a sub panel. Separate ground and common!

No one said to re-use the old conductors. No one said to overload his existing panel. Follow the code. It's legal. Get a permit, get it inspected if and there won't be any issues.

The amount of undue panic here makes me shake my head. You'd think electricity is a new invention.

[dad911]

Originally Posted by 1990C4S

No one said to re-use the old conductors...........

Jeez, lighten up, Francis. You DID NOT say to change wire in your post. I'm not the only one that read it as 'change the breaker, use it as a feed for a subpanel'

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by URY914

220-221, Whatever it takes.....

Darn you!
I never get to have any fun.

[Esel Mann]

lol, the circus is finally entertaining. running out for 5 to grab marshmellows and popcorn, then sit back and enjoy this pyrotechnic docudrama.

wasn't it jyl who had an air bnb'r under his porch? If so, I hope the under porch fire alarm is functional!

Sadly one is only able to rate this thread with stars. I give it four fire extinguishers.

[jyl]

Ha ha. I put a subpanel in garage. Calculated wire size, read code on locations, buried dual grounds in earth at appropriate places, ran 240v and 110v all over, been running the table saw and kiln on the 240v. I can handle this subpanel. The new thing for me is figuring out where to locate subpanel on a wall with a lot of water and drain lines. Also I think I need to install a floor drain. d/w will drain 10 gpm, probably too much for the existing d/w drain in the kitchen sink P.

[jyl]

Okay, subpanel is installed and operating. No, I didn't re-use old wires or old breaker. New 60A 2 pole breaker, new 6 gauge THHN in conduit with separate neutral and ground.

(Hey, I never claimed to work fast).

Now to install the circuit for the dishwasher. It requires 240V 50A (4 wires incl ground) and the installation manual specifies 8 gauge wire.

The simplest path for the circuit is vertical from the sub panel (on a basement wall) up to the floor joists, horizontal across the joists to the dishwasher location along the kitchen exterior wall, then vertical through the floor and up the wall to the outlet under the kitchen counter. The run is about 15 feet. The dishwasher location is next to the kitchen sink.

I plan to use 8 gauge THHN wire in 3/4" (correction: 1") Sch 40 PVC conduit. I plan to fasten the conduit to the underside of the floor joists. Under the kitchen counter, I plan to surface mount the conduit and outlet to the wall. Since the outlet is in the kitchen, I believe GFCI protection is required. I plan to use a 240v 2 pole 50A GFCI breaker ($100!) in the subpanel.

My questions, for the PPOT braintrust:

1. Any problems you see with the run and conduit plan? I want to use conduit instead of Romex (is there even 50A Romex?) for additional protection. I want to fasten the conduit to the underside of the joists and to avoid drilling 3/4" holes in old joists.

2. Any problems with surface mounting the receptacle box under the kitchen counter? This is so that I don't have to install conduit inside the existing wall and drill 3/4" holes in old sill plates, or to make a conduit-to-Romex transition. (I do need to verify there will still be sufficient under-counter depth for the dishwasher.)

3. Any problems with getting the GFCI protection at the breaker, instead of at the receptacle? I'm not finding any GFCI 240v 50A receptacles.

[carambola]

Sounds to me that you are being cautious.
I like that.
Your idea to run the PVC is acceptable. You don't have to use GFCI protection but it is the safer route.
Just make sure all your connections are torqued correctly.
Good Luck

[jyl]

Thanks. I ended up cutting open the drywall and recessing the receptacle, running the conduit through the sill plate, because there wouldn't have been sufficient clearance behind the dishwasher with a surface mount box/receptacle. Used 1" conduit after checking wire fill requirements. Everything is buttoned up and I have correct voltage in the receptacle.

Now I need to get the dishwasher ready to install. Whoever removed it simply cut off the factory plug, so I bought a replacement plug. Worse, they cut the rubber drain hose flush with the dishwasher chassis - idiots! - so I need to splice in another length of hose. I think I'll try draining into the existing kitchen sink drain and not installing a floor drain unless I have to. I really don't like plumbing - something about it doesn't click with me.

Dang, I hope after all this the dishwasher actually works. I wasn't able to test it and for $250 it was an "as-is" sort of purchase.

It is a stunning heavy unit. I'll need helpers just to get it into the house.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by T77911S

if you have a 30amp on the dryer you cant just pop in a 50. the wiring needs to be upgraded.
#6 probably.

best advise I saw was double up some circuits.
pull new wire for washer.

I am with you on the new "crap" that is out there.

we had one of the basic washer and dryers for over 20yrs. wife had a kids resale shop and she washed EVERYTHING before it went in the store. so double the amount of use.
I wanted to get her something nicer. bad mistake. every so often our jeans come out with white streaks on them, she has to wash them again.
also takes much longer

same with dishwasher. takes forever.

not impressed.

Dishwasher today are far superior then those from the past 30 years. Quieter, washes are cleaner then ever. I am talking home not commercial.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by jyl

Thanks. I ended up cutting open the drywall and recessing the receptacle, running the conduit through the sill plate, because there wouldn't have been sufficient clearance behind the dishwasher with a surface mount box/receptacle. Used 1" conduit after checking wire fill requirements. Everything is buttoned up and I have correct voltage in the receptacle.

Now I need to get the dishwasher ready to install. Whoever removed it simply cut off the factory plug, so I bought a replacement plug. Worse, they cut the rubber drain hose flush with the dishwasher chassis - idiots! - so I need to splice in another length of hose. I think I'll try draining into the existing kitchen sink drain and not installing a floor drain unless I have to. I really don't like plumbing - something about it doesn't click with me.

Dang, I hope after all this the dishwasher actually works. I wasn't able to test it and for $250 it was an "as-is" sort of purchase.

It is a stunning heavy unit. I'll need helpers just to get it into the house.

50a 220v GFI breaker are pretty easy to find. Talk to the folks that sold you the sub panel. They should be able to local one for you. All you mentioned is fine.

[jyl]

Wish I could change the title of this thread, because I'm now in the dishwasher phase.

Installed the correct 14-50P plug. Extended the cut-off drain hose using 5/8" auto heater hose and a 90-deg barbed connector with hose clamps. The original drain hose was also 5/8" heater hose. Now I'm trying to figure out if I'm missing the detergent pickup hose and standpipe, kinda seems like it.

[ckelly78z]

My new dishwasher is 115v 25 amp, and does a really nice job with water so hot, it will burn you. it is also quiet enough that you can talk easily next to it. I installed it myself, and plumbed it all as well. My dryer is also 115v 25 amp with no problems whatsoever. This is the first time I have ever heard of a family home having 240V appliances, unless it is an industrial grade kitchen.

[MBAtarga]

Originally Posted by ckelly78z

This is the first time I have ever heard of a family home having 240V appliances, unless it is an industrial grade kitchen.

In-wall cabinet ovens and laundry dryers are 240V, nothing unusual about them at all (non-gas versions of course.)

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by look 171

Dishwasher today are far superior then those from the past 30 years. Quieter, washes are cleaner then ever. I am talking home not commercial.

My 1990s dishwasher did not use relays and put all of the power through reed switches on the door "dial". It nearly caught fire, and did melt. I hardwired the leads before eventually replacing the unit.

My BOSCH is quiet and uses super hot water to heat the dishes for "drying". Never a melted plastic/burn smell. And it is 120VAC.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by ckelly78z

My new dishwasher is 115v 25 amp, and does a really nice job with water so hot, it will burn you. it is also quiet enough that you can talk easily next to it. I installed it myself, and plumbed it all as well. My dryer is also 115v 25 amp with no problems whatsoever. This is the first time I have ever heard of a family home having 240V appliances, unless it is an industrial grade kitchen.

Most most electric cooktops, in wall ovens, electric ranges, electric dryers, hot water heaters, and of course any Air Conditioner 12,000 BTU and up, are 240VAC

[jyl]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Most most electric cooktops, in wall ovens, electric ranges, electric dryers, hot water heaters, and of course any Air Conditioner 12,000 BTU and up, are 240VAC

When we bought this house the only 240v breaker in use was for the central AC unit. Everything else was 120v or gas.

We installed a pottery kiln and table saw in the garage, both 240v, through a garage subpanel supplied from the last unused slots on my main panel.

Then my wife bought an electric clothes dryer, replacing the old gas unit, so the previously unused 240v breaker for the dryer circuit was required.

Now this dishwasher has required a basement subpanel, using the slots where the dryer breaker used to be. The clothes dryer and dishwasher will both run off that subpanel. I have a commercial dual head espresso machine that I want to get refurbished and use, and that will run off the subpanel as well.

I suppose a new main panel may eventually be required. The current one is only 125A. However, our next clothes dryer will be gas, so I might be able to hold off until I do something really major like the long-hoped-for solar panel/battery system.

We are thinking about getting an electric car; that charger would require another 240v circuit from the garage subpanel and I'd use a timer to charge it at night.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by red-beard

My 1990s dishwasher did not use relays and put all of the power through reed switches on the door "dial". It nearly caught fire, and did melt. I hardwired the leads before eventually replacing the unit.

My BOSCH is quiet and uses super hot water to heat the dishes for "drying". Never a melted plastic/burn smell. And it is 120VAC.

Beside Miele, I think Bosch are the best bang for the buck. Miele is another 30% more and basically does the same thing. Busch has got that dialed in pretty damn good

[look 171]

Originally Posted by jyl

When we bought this house the only 240v breaker in use was for the central AC unit. Everything else was 120v or gas.

We installed a pottery kiln and table saw in the garage, both 240v, through a garage subpanel supplied from the last unused slots on my main panel.

Then my wife bought an electric clothes dryer, replacing the old gas unit, so the previously unused 240v breaker for the dryer circuit was required.

Now this dishwasher has required a basement subpanel, using the slots where the dryer breaker used to be. The clothes dryer and dishwasher will both run off that subpanel. I have a commercial dual head espresso machine that I want to get refurbished and use, and that will run off the subpanel as well.

I suppose a new main panel may eventually be required. The current one is only 125A. However, our next clothes dryer will be gas, so I might be able to hold off until I do something really major like the long-hoped-for solar panel/battery system.

We are thinking about getting an electric car; that charger would require another 240v circuit from the garage subpanel and I'd use a timer to charge it at night.

Sounds like you really need a 200 amp box with a sub panel in the house. Have you ever done load calc with all you have there?