really...you can't be serious about this..unbelievable

[CJFusco]

yeah, damn that liberal massachusetts, with its being the cradle of our country and spawning so many presidents and all. it's not like whatever happened in our country 200 years ago matters now anyway (see, I can make fun of myself too)

Yeah, maybe i did jump the gun about that statue of liberty thing... admittedly i just scanned the post. i have reading comprehension down fine, i just have to commit myself to actually reading before i reply to something.

but i don't understand how you could slander massachusetts just because it breeds more liberals than any other part of the country. boston has more colleges than any other city in the country; boston has more liberals than just about any other city in the country... hmm, i'm seeing a correlation here...

[dd74]

Okay, I skimmed this thread and didn't see the following mentioned:

1) French fries originated in Belgium. But who wants to call them Belgium fries?

2) This gesture to call French fries "Freedom fries" makes next to no sense. French toast is also supposed to be "Freedom toast" BTW. It's a stupid issue introduced by a press-hungry Senator.

3) If French toast becomes Freedom toast on the menu at my local lesbian-run Sunday brunch eatery, the world is sunk.

4) C'mon CJ, you're a man of literary prowess. You've read classics, haven't you? Fellatio hasn't changed since DH Lawrence wrote about it ninety years ago, nor has the needed deaths to create freedom's birth as when written by Dickey and Celine, hence...

5) ...50 years is nothing when words (like literature, like this thread, too), can recreate history with a single sentence. Therefore, I think it is wrong to belittle what we did for Europe in WW I and II. Somewhere in Europe that memory most probably refreshes itself (or should) almost daily.

[Adam]

As far as France goes...

You've gotta love a country that (until recently) continually carries out NUCLEAR tests on the other side of the planet from where they are. In fact, they're tested in my BACKYARD!!! The sunny, radioactive, South Pacific. Plenty of room elsewhere, but seems that Mururoa & Bikini Atolls are far enough away from France for President Jacques Chirac. Is it any wonder that there is now increased Seismic activity along fault lines shared by Australia and New Zealand? Do we invoice the French for damages incurred when the next earthquake hits?

And while I'm ranting, you've gotta love a country that BOMBED a ship owned by an environmental peace/lobby group whilst moored in a foreign port. That turned out to be a Sanctioned action by the French Government and knowingly carried out under (then) President Francois Mitterand by French DGSE (Counter Intelligence) Officers. State-Sponsored TERRORISM. They murdered a crew member, who drowned while the ship sank. Last time I checked, France was considered an Ally.

A beautiful country, spoiled by (most of) it's citizens and their leaders. It's a pity they all have such a short memory span. History shows that they were in a pitiful state during WW2, yet now they forsake their allies/saviours to try to sweep possible arms deals with Iraq under the rug.

[wckrause]

originally posted by CJFusco

"Oh, you think Saddam is the only one 'doing evil?' How about when the U.S. bomed a Nicaraguan pharmacutical plant during the Clinton administration - an act that the UN forbade us from doing, calling it an act of terrorism - which resulted in the deaths in MILLIONS of innocent people because they couldn't get their medicine. Just because America does something doesn't mean it's "right". "


I hope this wasn't something that you learned in one of those great Boston colleges you've mentioned.

[CJFusco]

"Therefore, I think it is wrong to belittle what we did for Europe in WW I and II. Somewhere in Europe that memory most probably refreshes itself (or should) almost daily."

You're right, it isn't a good idea to belittle what we did in WWII, and I wasn't trying to; I was merely pointing out that France doesn't have to bend to the U.S.'s every whim just because we "saved their asses" over fifty years ago. Their actions over the past twenty years or so have been questionable, but in this case I don't think they are doing anything underhanded. I know they are opposing Iraqi occupation because of their own financial interests, but that's their prerogative (after all, that's why we want to occupy Iraq in the first place). Should we hate France? Sure... but not for this.

" 'Oh, you think Saddam is the only one 'doing evil?' How about when the U.S. bomed a Nicaraguan pharmacutical plant during the Clinton administration - an act that the UN forbade us from doing, calling it an act of terrorism - which resulted in the deaths in MILLIONS of innocent people because they couldn't get their medicine. Just because America does something doesn't mean it's "right". '


I hope this wasn't something that you learned in one of those great Boston colleges you've mentioned."

Once again, this is a case of someone not reading the entire thread. When someone called me on this, I realized that I had mis-typed (wrote Clinton instead of Reagan) and corrected myself three posts later:

"Sorry I mis-typed. The Reagan administration bombed Nicaragua, the Clinton adminitration bombed the Sudan asprin factory (claiming it was a weapons plant?). Good catch on your part. See what happens when you don't pay attention to what you're writing."

And that is fact; not gonna dispute me on that, are ya?

[wckrause]

"And that is fact; not gonna dispute me on that, are ya?"

Reagan never bombed Nicaragua. Can you please explain why you think he did?

How can you mistype "which resulted in the deaths in MILLIONS of innocent people because "

Did you really mean to type THOUSANDS, but your finger slipped? Or did you just make up all of that stuff, or was it just wishful thinking. It's easy to have liberal ideas when you have no grasp of the facts.

[CJFusco]

Pick up Howard Zinn's A PEOPLE'S HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES. It is in there, in the Carter-Reagan-Bush chapter. And it is end-noted... sorry I can't give page numbers and direct quotes; I am in CT and my copy of the book is in Boston.

And maybe Reagan HIMSELF didn't bomb Nicaragua... but his administration did (if you're gonna argue simantics again )

[island911]

Originally posted by CJFusco
. .. but in this case I don't think they (france) are doing anything underhanded. .. . .

If france were just taking a stance on ethics, it would be one thing. Even if they were using their inaction because they're paralized with fear, it would be somewhat palatable. BUT, they are actively lobbying other UN countries to go against the US efforts.

Translated, they aren't just being rude, they are actively trying to screw the US.

On "french fries" . . it's kinda an old term. Most people just say "fries".

[tabs]

Dear CJ you play fast and loose with the facts.....exactly what the liberals love to do..obscure reality for their own ends...so U are learning well in those Boston Schools....

The only other place that I can think of that is more liberal than Boston is San Francisco,...home to Nancy Pellossi, and Willi Brown as Mayor....or the great University of California home of Socialist thinking BERKELEY..... They actually think May 1st should be a National Holiday....maybe it's the lattitude that both those cities are on that makes them so liberal? Say is Paris on the same Lattitude?

[wckrause]

Do you mean that reference to the allegation that the CIA may have played a role in the mining of Nicaraguan harbor? That's your bombing??? Even if "A People's History..." was a credible source, your statement is a stretch.

Did you also read about the "MILLIONS" of people that died from the lack of medicine in that book?

Just curious, but is that book a required text in your elite Boston university?

[CJFusco]

The book is a required text in many courses in many nationwide universities. I was never required to read it; I just did.

Well, I pointed to a printed source - and a respected one - that has end-notes to back up my statements, and that's really the best one can ask for in a situation like this, because none of us were actually there. Can you do the same?

[wckrause]

What about your claim of MILLIONS of deaths because of the bombing in the Sudan? What is your source for that?

[tabs]

Where all Liberals get their facts.....they make them up

[wckrause]

Or they wait for somebody else to make them up and then they repeat them like gospel.

"Gosh, it must be true, it was on the barbrastreisand.com website"

[racea911]

Guys,
Lets take it easy on CJ. He's just a college student in Boston. He doesn't have any choice, he has to go along with everyone else in his area, and everyone else in his area is about as liberal as you can get. To go against the grain would take way too much thinking for yourself and way too much nad. It's much easier to go along with the rest of the flock and learn well from colleges that go out of their way to make sure the issues are presented from one side only. That side is an extremely left-leaning side. These colleges are filled with teachers who have done nothing productive in their lifetimes, unless you consider indoctrinating lemmings, and publishing works that would make Marx and Trotsky look like moderate capitalists. The fact that you are reading and quoting published works by a lefty, doesn't make them accurate. Have you read "Harvard Hates America" yet? That's a published work by a respected author. Yes, the author is respected by some but not all, just like Zinn that you religiously follow.

CJ, remember, many of us have done the liberal college student thing already. It was alot of fun, and the liberal chicks were obviously way easier to score with A few years down the road after life set in, I realized, well, college was fun, but my political indoctrination was certainly misguided and empty and had no validity in the place you are already tired of hearing about. That's right, the REAL WORLD. Remember CJ, a burned-out hippie who dreams of Utopia, with a shower and a "PROF" in front of their name is still an idealistic, burned-out hippie.

All we are getting from you is the same form letter that 98% of the other kids in your school could provide us with. Be a bad a$$ CJ, wear a Yankees shirt to a Red Sox game, wear a Lakers shirt to a Celtics game. Don't just accept your teachers and their concepts as truth. Remember, those who can, do. Those who can't teach.

[dd74]

You're harsh, but very accurate.

I didn't go to a "liberal-line" school, i.e. every line was liberal-oriented. I did happen to go to a Noam Chomsky forum at my school, and while he is left (real left), he did have educated arguments against countries where two parties dominate the politics (the U.S.), which he said, more or less, had to end or "lack of choice" would end the country itself. To make it simple, Chomsky was the only liberal I've ever heard who had something new to add to the argument of what being a liberal is.

Today's liberals are a joke: they're repetitous of ancient liberal propaganda, undecided in their path and nonexistent in the face of what might be a Republican-won issue (this war for instance).

Yes, you are right: colleges, to a degree, breed them. But then the Democrats have been doing such a poor job these days of being a visible party, if I were now in college, I'd probably equate them to the Whigs (read "old" and truly nonexistent).

[tabs]

At UCSB I had a Proffessor who was from Chile...Jorge Nef, the Chilean government wanted him back...he fled the country when Allende was assinated back in the early 70's. I beleive he was a friend of Allendes... The CIA was putting pressure on the UC system to get rid of him and he shortly thereafter went to teach at McGill in Montreal... The thing his grad students and he were working on was the rise of Multinational corporations......the very things he was saying back in the early 70's turns out to be the very things the darling of the extreme Right wing in the USA Pat Buchanan is now saying nearly 30 years later...that the nation state is in decline and Multi National eg the Global economy is taking over (sic)....... Of all the proffessor I had I liked Jorge Nef the best......

[stray15]

Wow guys, this is great reading!

I'm learning, but not sure if what I am learning is accurate or not. I guess I can go read some books but who says they are right anymore? I'll just keep my old fashioned right-wing ways that I was born into. 21 years on this side and I haven't seen any reason not to stay here, and I've read/heard a lot of arguements in my college...and that is noway near any college you guys have gone too...

[Rob McKibbon]

Well, let's put it in layman's terms: Your buddy helps you out all your life, over and over and over and over, in fact his Dad helped out your Dad too. You have a good friendship and it's like a "big Brother", then one day your pal needs you to cooperate with him on an issue he's got; but NO, you decide you're gonna go a stray on this one.

There are alot of Countries that owe alot of thanks to our US neighbours, mine included. Maybe the States aren't always right, but they certainly deserve our support! Us Canadians are always willing to support our neighbours efforts and we're proud of our big brother!

Who really wants war? You think Bush is just conjurring up ways to start a fight? I don't think so, this man is an awesome leader and we should all be thankful and supportive!

We've got our "french" side here that give us grief at the best of times too; Get on board and let's support those who are putting in so much effort to protect our "Freedom"!!!!

[CJFusco]

"What about your claim of MILLIONS of deaths because of the bombing in the Sudan?"

Does anyone actually read what they argue against? The Sudan bombing was an asprin factory; nobody died from lack of aspirin.

And all that "follow the flock" garbage you are trying to pin on me for being a New England liberal? Funny, that's exactly how I see all these Pro-War people; they quote Limbagh and O'Reilly and (god help us) Bush like they are Bible Truth, and then when you wave books and news articles in their faces they say, "shame on you, Liberal, for distorting the facts," without adding anything new to the table.

The fact of the matter is that I have some VERY conservative beliefs (I come from a religious background, and my father and all my uncles are retired cops... I will let you figure out what those beliefs are), but when it comes to things like this war that Bush is trying to push onto the American people, I just don't buy it. I have read both sides, and the Republican side just doesn't make sense... it is a pulpit based completely around fear and manipulation, using people's willingness to believe the government in order to protect oil industry interests. If Saddam does have "WoMD" and is such a bad man, shouldn't that mean we should be invading N. Korea, too? He never allowed UN Inspectors in the first place.

I don't see this as following the flock at all, for it seems that nearly everyone is against me...

...once this war starts, and terrorism skyrockets, and the country is torn apart between liberals and conservatives, and we install a puppet government in Iraq, thereby increasing anti-American sentiment and leading to MORE terrorism, you will see that I'm was right all along.

Until then, I guess I just need to keep my mouth shut and laugh while all your worst nightmares come true.

Man, I feel like Johnny Smith from THE DEAD ZONE...