What's the ethical discosure regarding IMS?

[LEAKYSEALS951]

Yes - another IMS thread.

Basically, I have a favorite mexican place. I go there often. The father/mom who runs the place work their butts off. I have watched their children work hard there too- growing up and becoming hard working adults.


Last week, one of the kids pulled me aside and said "Hey... you like porsches...look what I bought." He took me out back to show me his "new" 996 mark2 2002 carrera 4 cabriolet.

WOW! I exclaimed. The kid likes cars. He worked hard for it. He deserves it. He was genuinely happy about his purchase and I was happy for him.


Not wanting to spread IMS paranoia, I asked him if he had a maintenance history on the car. He handed me everything in the glove compartment- which wasn't much. The car was at about 80,000 miles. I could find no hx of IMS service, or even oil changes for that matter.

I asked him if he knew anything about these motors. He said no. Not wanting to burst his bubble or rain on his parade with my own fears, I said little.

Tonight, he was driving it around the parking lot and I spoke to his dad (the restaurant owner). He told me his son had originally gone into get an $11,000 996, and got upsold to this $20,000 car. I told him about the IMS, and not to get worried about it, but to have it checked, and I gave him the name of a local p-car mechanic I know to go over the car.


I'm of two minds on this. First- the engine sounded tight. Nothing was loose, and I have no need to piss on this kid's cheerios. There seem to be plenty of people here who have no concern over the IMS issue, and drive with little regard to it.

On the other hand, learning the kid was a little in over his head from dad, I felt the need to at least recommend the car have a go over from my local p-car guy. I'd hate to see him lose an engine at this point due to IMS/ chunking/ whatever....

Soooo.... what are the ethical considerations/obligations regarding IMS awareness/vs/ hysteria?

I told the dad I didn't want to spread fear over the issue, but at the same time, I told him to get the car looked over. I hope I did well from both sides of the IMS concern isle!

[strupgolf]

You did what you had to do, telling the father to get the car looked at. Maybe the car will need nothing for the next 100,000 miles, but it might need something in the next 100. Many of these live a happy life without this issue, and maybe the IMS issue has been addressed. I wouldn't say anything other then what you said. Wave to him as he drives by with a big smile on his face.

[LEAKYSEALS951]

Originally Posted by strupgolf

You did what you had to do, telling the father to get the car looked at. Maybe the car will need nothing for the next 100,000 miles, but it might need something in the next 100. Many of these live a happy life without this issue, and maybe the IMS issue has been addressed. I wouldn't say anything other then what you said. Wave to him as he drives by with a big smile on his face.

yeah.. when dad mumbled something about co-signing I felt the need to mention something, but I didn't want to let my own concerns about the issue rain on his parade. I told him if he ever sells the car, I would consider buying it and would replace the ims/rms myself if needbe. Who knows?

[wildthing]

Two things: P-car specific emergency fund and an honest mechanic to check for metal shavings every 5k oil change...

[masraum]

It sounds like you did a good job, put the bug in his ear, but didn't go overboard either.

[Jeff Higgins]

If it made it 80,000 miles without issues, it won't have any issues. The "window" is somewhere around half that mileage or less. This is one of the more overblown internet fueled issues that plague modern car ownership. One could be led to believe that this is a ticking time bomb in every single 996/986 ever made, and a lot of 997/987's as well. Last I saw, available data suggested that less than 10% of them ever had a "problem", with many of those likely just being "repaired" under an abundance of caution, before there was an issue.

I replaced the one in my 2003 Boxster at about 80,000 miles, but only because I was in there for the clutch anyway. The one that came out appeared brand new, with no discernible wear, much less any issues. Parts are cheap, and once you are in there deep enough to do the clutch, it's not a whole lot more work. Looks good in the stack of receipts should I ever want to sell it, though, since there is such a high level of internet fueled fear concerning these things.

I, personally, would not have brought it up. I feel you have needlessly instilled a bit of trepidation into what should be a pretty uplifting experience for the kid. Maybe at this point tell him that if it ever needs a clutch, go ahead and replace the IMS bearing as well, but not to worry about it otherwise.

[LEAKYSEALS951]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

If it made it 80,000 miles without issues, it won't have any issues. The "window" is somewhere around half that mileage or less. This is one of the more overblown internet fueled issues that plague modern car ownership. One could be led to believe that this is a ticking time bomb in every single 996/986 ever made, and a lot of 997/987's as well. Last I saw, available data suggested that less than 10% of them ever had a "problem", with many of those likely just being "repaired" under an abundance of caution, before there was an issue.

I replaced the one in my 2003 Boxster at about 80,000 miles, but only because I was in there for the clutch anyway. The one that came out appeared brand new, with no discernible wear, much less any issues. Parts are cheap, and once you are in there deep enough to do the clutch, it's not a whole lot more work. Looks good in the stack of receipts should I ever want to sell it, though, since there is such a high level of internet fueled fear concerning these things.

I, personally, would not have brought it up. I feel you have needlessly instilled a bit of trepidation into what should be a pretty uplifting experience for the kid. Maybe at this point tell him that if it ever needs a clutch, go ahead and replace the IMS bearing as well, but not to worry about it otherwise.

That was my gut instinct-at his mileage, his IMS would probably be perfect if they tore it apart. Judging from the smile on the kid's face tonight, I don't think I converted him to an IMS paranoid.

Since I do my own work, I look at the IMS like the timing belts on the early 944's. Whenever I'd get a new 944, I'd change the timing belt at the first convenient time. Not a huge deal if done at home. The IMS would be a little more involved, but still doable. For people who don't have the means to do that, I don't really know what to say,

but in his case... If he even mentions it, I'll tell him the engine likes to be revved high! Go enjoy!

[sc_rufctr]

You did the right thing.

[pwd72s]

I'd say since he already bought the car, you did well.

If prior to purchase, somebody asked my opinion of a 996, I'd sure tell them to search "IMS Bearing" on youtube.

[speeder]

You could teach the young man about the importance of religious oil changes on schedule using only the best oil and a dealer filter, (or German OEM equivalent), not getting on it before the oil is warmed-up, stuff like that. Just common sense advice for the owner of any expensive engine but unfortunately not always common.

That would be advice you'd never have to think twice about.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Based on your post I’d say you don’t need to be giving advice. The failure rate, even around the class action lawsuit cars, was pretty low in the grand scheme of things. Let the kid enjoy his car without pumping him full of internet fueled hysteria. I’ve owned somewhere along the lines of 8 9X6 cars and only one had a replaced IMS, at 90k and preventative.

Btw, none of these issues can be diagnosed by the engine “sounding tight”. Best case you can see it by cam deviation, worst case it is castastropic failure. But in the vast majority of cases it’s just dead reliable.

[Crowbob]

This IMS issue is the primary reason I got out of the Porsche Playground. True or not, paranoia or propaganda, any company that produces and sells at such a high price ‘excellence’ that is a crapshoot is too rich for my blood.

[A930Rocket]

If someone hasn’t bought the car yet, I’d say something to be on the lookout for. Once bought and they are happy, I’d probably not say anything. Just maintain it, have fun and here’s the name of a good p car wrench.

[JackDidley]

Originally Posted by speeder

You could teach the young man about the importance of religious oil changes on schedule using only the best oil and a dealer filter, (or German OEM equivalent), not getting on it before the oil is warmed-up, stuff like that. Just common sense advice for the owner of any expensive engine but unfortunately not always common.

That would be advice you'd never have to think twice about.

That is what I was thinking. No point in scaring him. If all the internet disasters came true I never would have completed the 300 mile drive home when I bought my Cayman. The IMS, clutch, shift cables and water pump all survived the trip. + 20,000+ more miles.

[porsche tech]

Having 42 years experience at a Porsche dealer in the shop, I wouldn't buy a 996 or 986 without being prepared for that problem. You wouldn't believe the number of engines we replaced under warranty and COD for intermediate shaft bearing failure. I see your dilemma, but I wouldn't go up to someone I didn't know to "warn" them. However, I've had many people ask my opinion when they're thinking of buying one (a guy in my bible study class last week was the latest) and that's the first thing to come out of my mouth.--Dave

[LEAKYSEALS951]

Yeah (to JackDidley) I'm thinking when I see him next talking about some of the good stuff. The interior is in great shape, oil changes, not lifting on throttle in turns

The guy I referred him to (to have the whole car looked over) is a certified p-car mechanic (but now independent) and has a pretty fair grip on the IMS issue. He likes the IMS cars and doesn't get worked up about it. Infact, I could see him recommending what Higgins said- waiting until clutch, or something like that, if even that.

The whole thing was an interesting scenario. Usually people ask me before they buy the car (hey... I'm thinking about getting an old 944 or something), not after, and with dad on the loan, it was an uncommon scenario.

He certainly is enjoying the car and it's nice to have another p-car fan in the ranks. It's a fine line between awareness and paranoia. Hopefully he can get a good bill of health with the car and at least have an awareness/ strategy that will work within his means/ comfort level.

[KevinTodd]

I think you did absolutely the right thing. As you continue your visits to the restaurant, perhaps you can then begin delving deeper into the subject with the young man, or even lead him to some of the many forums out there that discuss the IMS issue in detail, and he will most likely get the hint.

Either way, like most have said, there's a much stronger chance at this point in that car's life that there will be no issues. If he chooses to be proactive about it, send him to your guy and let him invest the 2-3K to get it done. He'll still be in pretty good shape on the car, if recent sales are any indication of the 996 value curve. It really all depends on how long the young man is planning to keep the vehicle--and whether or not the person he eventually sells it to knows about the issue.

[recycled sixtie]

Leaky S you had no obligation to tell the new owner or his dad anything about the IMS.
You chose to because they are friends of yours. Theoretically a person should get a PPI done on a used car before purchasing. Buyer beware etc. But many buyers don't.

The best advice I would give is to suggest getting a new IMS installed. However owning a Porsche there are other preventive repairs that could be made in addition. A new water pump? He may find in time that Porsche ownership is not for him. It can get expensive. But that is his choice.

[Dan J]

I own an independent Porsche repair shop and have had to make "the phone call" over 25 times
Currently he has a 25K car if the IMS fails he has a 5k planter. It's easy math

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by Crowbob

This IMS issue is the primary reason I got out of the Porsche Playground. True or not, paranoia or propaganda, any company that produces and sells at such a high price ‘excellence’ that is a crapshoot is too rich for my blood.

I have to agree with this.

They're supposed to be premium sports cars made by a legendary manufacturer.

Some obvious questions...

*** If it's so rare then why didn't Porsche fix them immediately regardless of ownership, time or miles travelled?
(Assuming there's a legit service record. No manufacturer should have to back their product if it's not serviced properly)

*** Would we be so forgiving if Hyundai, Kia, Honda, Mazda produced an engine that had an 8% chance of failing catastrophically at about 60,000 miles?

*** And don't forget about the D Chunk issue affecting the early 996 engines. Caused by porosity casting of the engine block.

German quality?