Another brand new 737 Max crashes

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Sooner or later

I don't know if this has been brought up


https://www-bloomberg-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2019-03-19/how-an-extra-man-in-cockpit-saved-a-737-max-that-later-crashed?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fnews%2F articles%2F2019-03-19%2Fhow-an-extra-man-in-cockpit-saved-a-737-max-that-later-crashed

Jumpseat rider played critical role in Indonesian cockpit

An off-duty pilot saved the 737 Max from a crash. The next day, the same plane on flight JT610 crashed into the sea.
As the Lion Air crew fought to control their diving Boeing Co. 737 Max 8, they got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit.

That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation.

The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea killing all 189 aboard.

What I can't wrap my head around with this is if the same ****ing plane had a problem the day before it crashed why was it in service?

Did no one file a report that the thing was ****ed up?

Did maintenance not check it?

Did the airline not think to issue a bulletin to its pilots as a "heads up dudes, if this happens here's how to not die"?

[flipper35]

Many have stated the aircraft was not airworthy for that flight. Improper maintenance being the largest issue.

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by javadog

I've seen that. One more suggestion that the pilots were not up to snuff. Reports are that their was a great deal of panic expressed in the voices heard in the cockpit voice recorder.

When a pilot (the captain) adjusts the trim 21 times and fails to figure out he has an uncommanded trim problem, or recognizes it and doesn't know how to stop it, I'm going to say he shouldn't have been a captain. I understand that there was a lot going on but he had the presence of mind and time to keep adjusting the trim.

Every single passenger really hopes to have another Chesley Sullenberger or a pilot just like him as the pilot in command. He lost both engines and had zero panic, just 100% business, clear communications and make the right choices NOW.

Unfortunately we often get the folks that cheated on tests, did not read the manual, and should not be flying a ultralight much less a airliner.

It looks like Boeing has shot themselves right in the middle of their foot. With a large caliber gun. With 20/20 hindsight it is virtually incomprehensible they would design a system that wants to take control with just one sensor thinking there is a problem, and not make it perfectly clear to every pilot how to disable it quickly.

Originally Posted by Sooner or later

I don't know if this has been brought up


https://www-bloomberg-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2019-03-19/how-an-extra-man-in-cockpit-saved-a-737-max-that-later-crashed?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fnews%2F articles%2F2019-03-19%2Fhow-an-extra-man-in-cockpit-saved-a-737-max-that-later-crashed

Jumpseat rider played critical role in Indonesian cockpit

An off-duty pilot saved the 737 Max from a crash. The next day, the same plane on flight JT610 crashed into the sea.
As the Lion Air crew fought to control their diving Boeing Co. 737 Max 8, they got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit.

That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation.

The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea killing all 189 aboard.

I saw that. Really remarkable, lucky that pilot was there, or we'd have had a disaster the day before. Incredible that that incident was not shared.

The PIC was an experienced, high-hour guy. I find it hard to believe that he would not understand an uncontrolled trim problem.

I haven't heard much about what the FDRs have revealed.

This came in today on the Lion Air crash. It seems that those pilots did not realize it was a trim issue and just wrestled the thing all the way down. Eerie and sad.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/cockpit-voice-recorder-reveals-moments-leading-lion-air-boeing-737-n985296

Reminds me of a case a friend of mine had where a throttle stuck open on a young lady's car on I-90 near Snoqualmie. She hammered the brakes for 60 miles til she got to 405, then crashed. It didn't occur to her to put the car into neutral or to switch off the key. People behave really oddly under stress.

[gordner]

I had a similar experience in a brand new cube van, driven by a person I would say is a car guy and mechanically apt. The throttle jammed wide open and, brakes were inadequate to stop it, and to this day I am sure it would have been an accident if I had not knocked it into neutral for him. He was so consumed with steering and holding the brake down, he forgot he had other means of engine control at hand.
Panic does weird things to your thinking for sure. Which is why training is supposed to make your required reactions second nature.

[legion]

I did a minor repair on my old 951 and took it for a test drive. After a few miles of successful testing, I decided to open it up. When I went to shift from 1st to 2nd the revs did not drop and instead pegged the red line and bounced off the rev limiter. First thing I did was to not release the clutch. Second thing I did was to put it in neutral. Third thing I did was to turn off the engine. Then I just coasted into a nearby parking lot and popped the hood.

The problem was immediately obvious: the throttle cam was stuck open on a hose clamp. 30 seconds later I had the hose clamp rotated out of interference with the throttle cam and the problem was fixed.

Originally Posted by gordner

I had a similar experience in a brand new cube van, driven by a person I would say is a car guy and mechanically apt. The throttle jammed wide open and, brakes were inadequate to stop it, and to this day I am sure it would have been an accident if I had not knocked it into neutral for him. He was so consumed with steering and holding the brake down, he forgot he had other means of engine control at hand.
Panic does weird things to your thinking for sure. Which is why training is supposed to make your required reactions second nature.

I agree completely. Between racing, autocrossing, and track driving, I've spun a whole bunch of cars over the years. It took about five or six spins to successfully execute the "both feet in" rule, and several more to learn that that rule is not necessarily the best plan of action. That's a whole lot of spins required to unlearn things under natural stress reactions.

I don't know the extent to which modern airplanes allow "close to edge" events (do they spin airplanes in flight training?), or if they even have much "feel" left to them. I read up on today's "last seconds" stories on each crash, and it sounds like the captain was trying to find the answer in the manuals.

This is starting to feel like the usual confluence of machine/software/training/maintenance issues that crashes usually are.

[p911dad]

One I will never forget: I was checking out a guy I didn't know on a Piper Arrow many years ago, he claimed he had a license, hours, etc. He wanted to rent the plane for a few hours. I had him do a few maneuvers, and had him do a power-on stall. He froze with the yoke pulled fully back and wouldn't let go. I had to whack him after he didn't respond to my instruction (increasingly loud instruction!). I took control of the plane and we had a quiet ride back to the airport. In a stressful situation bad things can happn.

[93nav]

I have no personal experience, but I believe that pilots spend a lot of time in simulators going over emergency procedures. And the simulators will make you sweat.

Originally Posted by madcorgi

I agree completely. Between racing, autocrossing, and track driving, I've spun a whole bunch of cars over the years. It took about five or six spins to successfully execute the "both feet in" rule, and several more to learn that that rule is not necessarily the best plan of action. That's a whole lot of spins required to unlearn things under natural stress reactions.

I don't know the extent to which modern airplanes allow "close to edge" events (do they spin airplanes in flight training?), or if they even have much "feel" left to them. I read up on today's "last seconds" stories on each crash, and it sounds like the captain was trying to find the answer in the manuals.

This is starting to feel like the usual confluence of machine/software/training/maintenance issues that crashes usually are.

[Noah930]

Originally Posted by 93nav

I have no personal experience, but I believe that pilots spend a lot of time in simulators going over emergency procedures. And the simulators will make you sweat.

Yeah, but does the simulator simulate what happened on these two doomed flights?

[kach22i]

05/22/18
737 MAX: A YEAR OF SERVING THE GLOBE
https://randy.newairplane.com/2018/05/22/737-max-a-year-of-serving-the-globe/

RELIABILITY

With the 737 MAX, we added new functions and capabilities to make it the best single-aisle airplane in the market. When you put in all that new technology, you’re bound to have some teething in the beginning. But after working those out, the MAX is sitting at 99.4% schedule reliability. That’s the highest reliability of any new airplane entering service, and exactly where we expected to be 12 months into service.

Now, we’re driving toward even better numbers, targeting 99.7% reliability by the end of this year. All indicators show we’re right on track to get there as we work closely with our customers.

2016-02-12
Airbus A320 Neo vs Boeing 737 MAX
https://aviationvoice.com/airbus-a320-neo-vs-boeing-737-max-2-201602121522/

Since 2006, Boeing had been studying various replacement options for the 737 too. A decision on this replacement was postponed, and delayed until 2011. In November 2014, it was reported that Boeing intends to replace the 737 by 2030 with a new airplane. Debut and the record number of orders of Airbus A320neo forced Boeing to change their strategy. The pressure from airlines and aviation community for more fuel efficient aircraft forced Boeing to shelve their previous plans. On August 30, 2011, company‘s board of directors approved the 737 MAX project.

Today the 737 MAX is designed to be 14 percent more fuel-efficient than the current generation of 737s and has 3, 072 orders.

The MAX’s first flight came on 29th of January, 2016, nine days after the first delivery of the Airbus A320neo. Boeing is expected to deliver its first 737 MAX to customers in 2017. Southwest Airlines is scheduled to be the first airline to add the 737 MAX to its fleet.

[javadog]

“The captain of the doomed Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 never received updated training on a Boeing 737 Max 8 simulator, even though the airline had the technology available since January, according to a report.”

https://www.foxnews.com/travel/ethiopian-airlines-pilot-of-doomed-flight-didnt-receive-training-on-new-simulator-report

[john70t]

Originally Posted by 93nav

I have no personal experience, but I believe that pilots spend a lot of time in simulators going over emergency procedures. And the simulators will make you sweat.

Just the other day I was flying in the FSX video game.
The twin DA-40 was trying to roll over hard and I was fighting controls while I was trying to figure out what was causing it. It was a low flight and there were some near misses with hills.

First I thought one engine was out but that would not cause that. Perhaps one flap had not retracted but I still hadn't put them down. Opposite rudder responded and elevators and ailerons all seemed to be affecting flight. Tried trim adjustment but no effect. I was panicked.

Then I realized autopilot was on. Pushed that and everything returned to normal.
That was minutes after the first signs of trouble. I failed that test as well.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by afterburn 549

I would think REAL hard about ever buying an unproven platform again.

One of the oldest flying platforms out there.

Boeing 737
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737

The 737 was originally envisioned in 1964. The initial 737-100 made its first flight in April 1967, and entered airline service in February 1968 with Lufthansa.

[flipper35]

Originally Posted by p911dad

One I will never forget: I was checking out a guy I didn't know on a Piper Arrow many years ago, he claimed he had a license, hours, etc. He wanted to rent the plane for a few hours. I had him do a few maneuvers, and had him do a power-on stall. He froze with the yoke pulled fully back and wouldn't let go. I had to whack him after he didn't respond to my instruction (increasingly loud instruction!). I took control of the plane and we had a quiet ride back to the airport. In a stressful situation bad things can happn.

Even in cars if they are a bit different than you are used to.

When I was building my Cobra replica the engine was not yet running so dad and I pushed it out of the garage with mom operating the brakes since the driveway has an incline and it would roll across the street if we didn't use the brakes. In that car the pedals are off set due to the wide transmission tunnel. Well, it dropped of the little ledge between the garage and driveway and started rolling so mom of course stood on the brakes. Except I could hear the gas pedal hitting the stop over and over as she thought she was pumping the brakes. Dad and I both yelled to use the brakes and she was yelling back that she was, though clearly she was not. Even after the car rolled across the street and got stopped and we showed her she insisted she was hitting the brakes. Panic can make you do wierd things. Good thing there was no gas in it yet, she would have had a pool of gas in the manifold as much as she was pumping.

[flipper35]

Originally Posted by Noah930

Yeah, but does the simulator simulate what happened on these two doomed flights?

If you are talking generic 737 then not exactly but pretty close. It would be similar to being in a car where the simulator has the ABS malfunction and you pull the fuse. The new sport car MAX has a stability control that works with the ABS and malfunctions causing the ABS to not work right.

[DanielDudley]

''Doomed Jets Lacked 2 Safety Features That Boeing Sold as Extras''

'' The planes that crashed in Ethiopia and Indonesia weren’t equipped with optional safety features that could, in part, have helped the pilots detect erroneous readings.
Now the company is making one of those features standard.''

NYT, 2h ago,1295 comments.

Sounds like Boeing actually knows what the problem is, and has known. The airplane has diabetes. The insulin was an optional extra.

[gordner]

The manufacturer may cover some of the costs of a retrofit due to an AD, usually only the parts costs. As to the downtime, that is the operators problem, and the aircraft manufacturer will not compensate for it. I have never seen insurance to cover an aircraft on ground due to AD. Depending on the issue, with business jet aircraft occasionally a high end manufacturer like gulfstream will help cover costs of chartering other aircraft during down time, but I have never seen that applied in an AD situation, only in one of problems unique to that hull. And I would doubt an airline manufacturer would be inclined to expose themselves to a liability that high. The cost to blanket cover all the downed max's and offer compensation to airlines would break boeing, it would be an astronomical amount of money.

[flipper35]

So it was missing the oil pressure gauge and oil pressure sensor disagree warning light.