Another brand new 737 Max crashes

[javadog]

My guess is that they were distracted by other things and not focused on the power setting.

[flipper35]

Originally Posted by javadog

This quote, from another forum, might just sum things up.

“I will preface my response by saying that there is lots of blame to go around and when I criticize the pilots understand that this is also a criticism of their airline employer as well as their national CAA.

In all three MCAS incidents, immediately upon lift-off the aircraft was into an Unreliable Airspeed situation (stick shaker, disparity between the various airspeed indicators). This is a recall (memory) checklist - set an attitude/power setting (10 degrees/85% with flaps, 4 degrees/70% clean - don't quote me on those numbers as I am not MAX qualified), autopilot and auto throttles off, etc. This is a simple emergency procedure.

Neither the Ethiopian nor Lion Air accident aircraft pilots did this checklist. In fact, the Ethiopian Captain asked for the autopilot on, contrary to the checklist. Getting the power back from take-off to 85% or less would have most helpful in controlling the speed and hence the trim forces when manual trim was required later. I think it is fair to ask why four B737 MAX rated pilots did not do a simple, memory checklist and remember, this is along before the flaps went to zero and MCAS kicked in.

When the flaps were selected up and the aircraft was in manual flight the MCAS did its thing, namely provided an uncommanded nose down trim. Anybody hand flying the jet surely could not miss this as the trim was uncommanded, downward and produced a lot of nose down trim; manual electric trim was available including continuous nose up trim to both stop MCAS and return the aircraft to a neutral trim - this is basic flying skills. Nevertheless, neither crew did not do the Stab Trim Runaway procedure which, again, is a simple, memory checklist...manhandle the aircraft and shut off the stab trim cut-off switches. Once again, how is it that the four pilots in these two aircraft did not do a simple recall checklist? Worse, on the Lion Air flight on the same aircraft previously, the operating crew did not know to turn off the stab trim and it took a jump seat pilot from another airline to point this out.

Pilot error is too often the go to explanation for an accident and I don't like it one bit however why did these pilots, all MAX endorsed, not do two simple, memory checklists particularly the Ethiopian crew that should have been acutely aware of this issue following the Lion Air accident.”


I realize that we shouldn’t automatically blame the pilots until the investigation is complete, but I think some mistakes were made here.

I would wager that a Southwest Airlines or American Airlines pilot would not have had this outcome.

I would have to look again, but I think there were 5 events reported by US pilots in regards to MCAS issues. There is a lot of blame to go around including Boeing on this as far as I am concerned. No reason they shouldn't have used redundant sensors here.

Airbus does the same thing: Make all the variants of the type "feel" the same. They do use triple redundant systems for their fly by wire.

What I find ironic here is that Airbus does not believe the pilots should be able to override the computers and Boeing does. There have been a couple incidents where pilots have recovered aircraft from incidents where they would have crashed had they not had the ability to override the computers. (China Airlines 747SP). Of course, had the pilots been trained properly they would not have had to recover the aircraft. AF 447, had the rookie pilot been trained properly they would not have stalled 40k feet to the ocean. In the AF 447 had the controls mirrored each other it most likely would not have crashed since the other pilot in the cockpit told the rookie pilot to stop pulling back, which he did for a bit but pulled and held back the rest of the way. Had the other pilot been able to see his side stick was back he could have slapped the younger pilot and taken control.

Aircraft are becoming more automated and more complex and the training isn't keeping up. Airbus and Boeing both know this.

[javadog]

There’s no doubt that there are pilots in cockpits that don’t belong there. Not only is the training inadequate, and we probably have a shortage of pilots, but I think the standards of some of the carriers are far below where they should be. There’s absolutely no way that I would let a pilot with 300-some-odd hours total flying time anywhere near cockpit of a plane of this type. Hell, I wouldn’t fly in a small Cessna with a pilot with that little time on his hands.

[flipper35]

Depends on the pilot. There are people I know that have their commercial license that I would not get in a car with, let alone a plane. Others I know with low hours I would have no problem with. Then again, I have under 300 hours total. Hey, that means you wouldn't fly with me. I am offended!

[javadog]

I once had to fly with my brother's wife. I did not hold her skills in high esteem, but I had to go and it would not have been a good scene to discuss my concerns. I was in the right hand seat, god knows why, and all went well until she couldn't find the destination airport. Keep in mind she had over a 1000 hours and the plane was a new one, worth about a half million, with all the widgets one could want.

We made it, but that was my last flight with a pilot that doesn't fly for a big airline as his day job.

[flipper35]

Some people can pass a test, but that doesn't mean they have the right skill set to fly when the SHTF. How many people lose control of their car when a rabbit runs out in front of them and they panic. Or like my cousin. There was a tractor coming at her and it was on the shoulder on the opposite side of the road from her. She spun and backed into the tractor at speed.

FWIW, I have never gotten lost flying all over the midwest. Not that I wouldn't now that I am old and I can't calculate like I used to.

I have to say, even the small US airlines do a good job with training compared to some of the other countries airlines.

[javadog]

I think it ought to be pretty hard to get lost on a 250 mile flight in beautiful weather, with all the bells and whistles that are available in the cockpit of a plane that costs half a million. I probably wouldn’t ride in a car with her, either. Well, I never have anyway.

I once had a conversation with a very experienced instructor pilot that spent many years in the Middle East, training their pilots there. In his opinion, I don’t think there was anybody in the Middle East that he truly thought actually qualified for a pilots license.

[flipper35]

El Al maybe. Probably.

[Rinty]

Originally Posted by javadog

This quote, from another forum, might just sum things up...

PPRuNe?

[Jolly Amaranto]

I heard somewhere that with the jack screw at the end of its travel that there is tremendous pressure on the nut from the air hitting the control surfaces that would require super human strength to manually crank the trim wheels. By reducing engine power and air speed the crew can then crank the nut back down and regain manual control of the aircraft.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by flipper35

El Al maybe. Probably.

I can't remember if it was commercial or military. All I remember was that they were more suited to driving camels, or herding goats.

Originally Posted by Rinty

PPRuNe?

Yep. Another airline pilot, can't recall who.

Originally Posted by Jolly Amaranto

I heard somewhere that with the jack screw at the end of its travel that there is tremendous pressure on the nut from the air hitting the control surfaces that would require super human strength to manually crank the trim wheels. By reducing engine power and air speed the crew can then crank the nut back down and regain manual control of the aircraft.

More or less...

[Jeff Alton]

Originally Posted by David

Why would the Ethiopian crew keep the throttles near max power? Seems like that would give even less time to solve the problem vs helping pull the nose up.

Because they did not recognize what was happening with all of the systems on board. It speaks to not understanding what is happening at the time as well as not understanding how each of the control systems on the plane work, what forces act on them and how to overcome them.

It will be interesting to see if they tried to use the trim wheel and if so, with any assist? The forces on the jack screw would have been immense while descending at 500+kts with that stab at or near full deflection...

Cheers

[93nav]

That is what this guy says. He takes a while to say much, but what he says is good (I think).

https://www.youtube.com/user/blancolirio/videos

This guy is also good.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwpHKudUkP5tNgmMdexB3ow/videos

Originally Posted by Jolly Amaranto

I heard somewhere that with the jack screw at the end of its travel that there is tremendous pressure on the nut from the air hitting the control surfaces that would require super human strength to manually crank the trim wheels. By reducing engine power and air speed the crew can then crank the nut back down and regain manual control of the aircraft.

[Hawkeye's-911T]

I am a little late getting into this thread & have not had time to read each post carefully.
I was however recently informed of this link by a retired airline pilot & found it to be very informative.
Apologies if this has been previously submitted:

https://leehamnews.com/2019/04/05/bjorns-corner-et302-crash-report-the-first-analysis/

Cheers
JB

[javadog]

There's some interesting info in that analysis. Thanks for posting it.

[flipper35]

The comments too.

[Deschodt]

and now this:

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/travel/boeing-rejects-claim-shoddy-production-dreamliner-factory-n996861

Some pretty scary worker reports...

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by Deschodt

and now this:

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/travel/boeing-rejects-claim-shoddy-production-dreamliner-factory-n996861

Some pretty scary worker reports...

You can hear the same type talk from damn near any facility.

I was responsible for in plant and outgoing quality at several tire plants. I was a rare one since I advanced in the production side and then moved into the quality organization. The balance between production and quality was most always a head knocker.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by Deschodt

and now this:

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/travel/boeing-rejects-claim-shoddy-production-dreamliner-factory-n996861

Some pretty scary worker reports...

Boeing produces the Dreamliner in North Charleston and in Everett, Washington, north of Seattle. The report examined only the South Carolina facility, and The Times acknowledged that "there is no evidence that the problems in South Carolina have led to any major safety incidents."

It would have been a fascinating comparison of regional cultures.

I trust this isn't too far off topic, but has anyone read about offshoring some of the engineering?

Aug 24 2017
How Boeing and Airbus use Russia's expertise to develop their airplanes
https://www.rbth.com/business/2017/08/24/how-boeing-and-airbus-use-russias-expertise-to-develop-their-airplanes_827604

Probably the two largest aircraft manufacturers in the world, Boeing and Airbus, have engineering centers in Russia. Local engineers contributed to many of the global passenger planes, including the latest Boeing 787 Dreamliner and A350 XWB. ...................

Take the 787 mentioned above. Its nose section, interior components, systems installations (such as environment control system, fuel, electrical and hydraulics systems), pylons, wing to body joint, and wing control surfaces were designed by the engineers of the Boeing subsidiary in Russia – the Boeing Design Center (BDC) that employs 1,200 aerospace engineers.

And the 787 is not the only airplane that was developed here. The largest design center for computer-aided design of aerospace structures outside the U.S., the BDC, took part in hundreds of Boeing projects including:

767-200SF

747-400BCF

737-900ER

777-300ER/200LR

747-400LCF

747-8F/-8I

787-8/9/10 Dreamliner.......................

The brand new A350 XWB (eXtra Wide Body) passenger jet, the main rival of the Boeing Dreamliner, was also a project that the Russian center participated in from the very start.

[Jeff Higgins]

Nothing is "designed" at the BDC by their "Russian engineers". The article has it completely wrong. These BDC "engineers" do some of the drafting (on programs that still use paper drawings) and CAD modeling (in CATIA V5) of designs that are fed to them by Boeing engineers. Anything they do actually "design" is pretty low level, repetitive stuff, like a dozen variations of the same bracket (that a Boeing engineer originally designed), or doubler, or stringer, or whatever, for use in different locations. All really low level, essentially drafting type work. The kind of stuff kach could even do, with proper oversight.