Another brand new 737 Max crashes

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Sooner or later

Justt announced that the US is grounding them immediately

Apparently, Trump ordered the grounding. This is O level, "I'll stop the oceans from rising" idiocy.

Again, I have been the President of two military aircraft accident boards: data, not speculation is king....and I grounded the entire USMC CH-53E fleet based on data, not what I think happened. The Marines were pissed but we were right, which they acknowledged when the dust settled.

How many flight hours on the 737 Max between the two accidents - pilot reports, MAFs, etc.?

What a world.

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Apparently, Trump ordered the grounding. This is O level, "I'll stop the oceans from rising" idiocy.

Again, I have been the President of two military aircraft accident boards: data, not speculation is king....and I grounded the entire USMC CH-53E fleet based on data, not what I think happened. The Marines were pissed by we were right, which they acknowledged when the dust settled.

How many flight hours on the 737 Max between the two accidents - pilot reports, MAFs, etc.?
R
What a world.

Once Canada buckled we didn't have much choice.

[jyl]

Grounding an aircraft type should not be decided by the President or any politician. It should be a FAA technical decision.

I've not gotten involved in the debate here about cause etc. I have my opinions but no relevant expertise/data so best to stay quiet.

BA looks v interesting here, though.

[rfuerst911sc]

^^^ But our president has the most bigly ...... bestest ....... stable genius brain there is and probably knows more than the Boeing engineers Sorry couldn't resist . I do agree this is not a political issue , the data/facts have to be gathered by the experts . That data has to be analyzed to come up with the likely cause of these two crashes . At this point NO ONE knows what the cause is or if they are similar causes . RIP to all that lost their lives and to their surviving loved ones .

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Apparently, Trump ordered the grounding. This is O level, "I'll stop the oceans from rising" idiocy.

Again, I have been the President of two military aircraft accident boards: data, not speculation is king....and I grounded the entire USMC CH-53E fleet based on data, not what I think happened. The Marines were pissed but we were right, which they acknowledged when the dust settled.

How many flight hours on the 737 Max between the two accidents - pilot reports, MAFs, etc.?

What a world.

Yup. Sadly when aerospace incidents bubble into the public eye they quickly cease to be rational data-driven discussions and immediately become emotional and irrational. Political affiliation aside, watching our political leaders fumble to even describe why the airplane should be grounded was painful.

[widebody911]

https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2019/03/12/business/12reuters-ethiopia-airlines-trump.html

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by jyl

Grounding an aircraft type should not be decided by the President or any politician. It should be a FAA technical decision.

I've not gotten involved in the debate here about cause etc. I have my opinions but no relevant expertise/data so best to stay quiet.

BA looks v interesting here, though.

Is Trump's involvement unprecedented?

I agree this should be an FAA decision.

Is one of the short comings of a "point to point" air traffic system where soft hubs are possibly denying aircraft full and proper servicing and by using second tier pilots (in foreign countries) a factor?

Western Europe because of population densities and limited land is projected to remain Hub & Spoke, while growth markets such as Africa and Asia (5-6 percent growth annually) and the North America (lower projected growth) will be going to "point to point" in the next decade. Hence economy airlines like Southwestern's use of the 737 Max in less popular routes with smaller aircraft.

Boeing 737 Max: How many of those planes fly for Southwest, American, United, and where?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2019/03/12/boeing-737-max-how-many-fly-southwest-america-united-and-where/3143113002/

Air route maps and aircraft count in link above.

I'm just saying that the more out of the way places that use high technology aircraft, the more one would expect to see these type of events playing out over and over again - sadly.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by widebody911

https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2019/03/12/business/12reuters-ethiopia-airlines-trump.html

Interesting article.

Boeing is also one of the largest U.S. exporters to China, and Muilenburg told an aviation summit in Washington that purchases of its U.S.-made aircraft by China could be part of a sweeping trade deal currently being negotiated.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by javadog

We don’t know what brought down the second jet; as for the first one, I think you’d have a hard time blaming Boeing. There were mechanical problems that were not properly fixed, I suspect you’ll find that the pilot training was inadequate and I think you will also find that these Third World Airlines don’t spend the money that the US airlines do, to outfit the jets with the options that would make this problem fairly moot.

Regarding the bolded above:

Agree, and it appears to not even be a question on this latest crash, IMO. The FO on that A/C is reported to have +/- 200 hours TOTAL. If that's true, it is rather scary.
You would not be allowed to fly right seat (SIC/FO) of any commercial airline in the US with only 200 hrs. That is WAY below even the lowest "restricted" ATP requirements.

[Deschodt]

I agree it should have been a data driven decision and not political...but what the #$%$ was the FAA waiting for ?

That specific airplane is a very small % of the overall jetliner fleet, is it such a terrible thing to err on the side of safety, instead of waiting for a non-third-world flown one to crash to prove or disprove it was pilot error/insufficient training? Money vs lives... Would you have sent your family on one ?

[jyl]

BA dropped 3-4% intraday on news of Trump ban, immediately recovered to close flat, investors are betting this will be resolved soonish w/o signif consequence to the company.

[Deschodt]

"Boeing continues to have full confidence in the safety of the 737 Max. However, after consultation with the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), the US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), and aviation authorities and its customers around the world, Boeing has determined -- out of an abundance of caution and in order to reassure the flying public of the aircraft's safety -- to recommend to the FAA the temporary suspension of operations of the entire global fleet of 371 737 Max aircraft."

I guess that clarifies who wears the pants in that relationship...

[Chocaholic]

To say it shouldn’t be a political decision is just naive. Sorry, it’s not a perfect world. Imagine if God-Forbid another one crashed in the US and DT didnt take a stand. Think it would be political then? I believe the “F” in FAA stands for federal. It’s just the world we live in. He did what he had to do.

[Seahawk]

[QUOTE=Deschodt;10389433Money vs lives...Would you have sent your family on one ?[/QUOTE]

Sure. Today. I'd get a cramp typing why.

Aviation accidents are spectacular events in lives lost and fear of the next flight.

When you ground an aircraft, there has to be a reason and a path to get the aircraft back in the air.

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Sure. Today. I'd get a cramp typing why.

Aviation accidents are spectacular events in lives lost and fear of the next flight.

When you ground an aircraft, there has to be a reason and a path to get the aircraft back in the air.

They had a reason. Two have dropped. The US was the only one left flying. There is a problem somewhere within the process.

When Canada grounded them they had no choice.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Sooner or later

They had a reason. Two have dropped. The US was the only one left flying. There is a problem somewhere within the process.

When Canada grounded them they had no choice.

Ok. I am all for it; But tell me why you would ground the fleet?

Pilot error?

System error?

Maintenance?

Fundamentally flawed aerodynamics?

Fire?

Terrorism?

Then tell me how we get them back in the air. What is that path forward and based on what data?

[VincentVega]

Of course you know the answer, I'm right with you. You also know the one that made the decision isnt the least bit interested in fact, reason or logical problem solving. CYA and maybe some air time. Sad state when such a decision has such an impact on so many.

I only hope the smart folks looking at this have everything they need and come to a quick determination of the actual cause(s).

[p911dad]

I have question about being able to recover control. This jet has a gross takeoff weight of about 194,000 ibs. In an episode like what has now occured twice, is a competent pilot able to get it back under stable flight when this close to the ground? Jets are extremely slippery aerodynamically and once established in oscillations of rapid up and down and being so heavy it seems like you could use up a lot of sky getting it back. What about a flat spin?
Ethiopian Airline said the pilots had had extra instruction on this issue in these variants and if a very experienced 8000 hour ATP couldn't get it done, what then? Once this problem starts, can it be brought back under control? It's not like being in cruise at 30,000' with 5 miles of sky below to play in.

[Sooner or later]

They don't need to know actual cause to ground them. If one was dropping out of they sky each week would we let them keep flying? Hell, no.

It happens all of the time. When Blue Bell recalled their ice cream they had no idea of root cause. They shut down for months to find the source.

When Firestone had their massive recall due to tread adhesion they had no idea of the root cause.

It looks like the 737 has about 2% of total US flights (USA Today). That amount grounded won't kill the industry. Another downed plane, though very unlikely, would kill Boeing.

They are doing the correct thing.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by VincentVega

I only hope the smart folks looking at this have everything they need and come to a quick determination of the actual cause(s).

Absolutely - unfettered by politics.

As a former pilot, connected to my flight control surfaces by push-rods, bell cranks, hydraulics and mechanical oomph, I have a certain nostalgia for pilot in the loop systems.

Those days are over (and I am glad I survived them) - I bet the simulators are working 24/7 with all ranges of pilots trained to fly the Max, from Sully to Dully.