J&J Opioid Judgement- Oklahoma

[Sooner or later]

Oklahoma is just the tip of the iceberg. There are 1000's of civil suits and at least 40 states waiting their turn.

Oklahoma dug up all the evidence of their tactics to increase sales for the other States to use. Looks like Purdue will settle for 12 billion nation wide. Not sure about total for Teva.

[Sooner or later]

The Sackler family would give up ownership of Purdue Pharma and pay $3 billion of its own money to settle thousands of state and federal lawsuits over its role in fueling the nation’s opioid epidemic.

The settlement, according to a tentative negotiated agreement described to NBC and The New York Times, would be worth between $10 billion and $12 billion.

The prescription painkiller OxyContin, introduced by Purdue in 1996, helped make the Sacklers America’s 19th richest family with a combined net worth of $13 billion, according to Forbes. The company has been accused of aggressively marketing the powerful and addictive painkiller even as it became clear that the drugs weren’t as safe as advertised.

At least 28 U.S. states have filed lawsuits against Purdue.


The settlement would require the company to restructure under a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing which would turn the private company into a “public beneficiary trust,” allowing the profits from all drug sales, including OxyContin, to go to the plaintiffs of the lawsuits.

The company also would agree to give its addiction treatment drugs free to the public. Those drugs are currently under development.

The company said in a statement emailed to NBC, which first reported the settlement, and The Times: “While Purdue Pharma is prepared to defend itself vigorously in the opioid litigation, the company has made clear that it sees little good coming from years of wasteful litigation and appeals. The people and communities affected by the opioid crisis need help now. Purdue believes a constructive global resolution is the best path forward, and the company is actively working with the state attorneys general and other plaintiffs to achieve this outcome.”

News of the proposed settlement comes a day after an Oklahoma state judge ordered Johnson & Johnson to pay $572 million for its part in the state’s opioid crisis. Oklahoma reached a $270 million settlement with Purdue Pharma and an $85 million settlement with Israel-based Teva Pharmaceuticals.

[berettafan]

Good stuff. Now lets get working on this vaping scourge.

And can we quit pretending this whole pot thing is about health benefits and deal with it as well?

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by berettafan

Good stuff. Now lets get working on this vaping scourge.

And can we quit pretending this whole pot thing is about health benefits and deal with it as well?

It sounds like vaping could be heading down the same path. I wouldn't want to be in that business.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by berettafan

Good stuff. Now lets get working on this vaping scourge.

+1 I see no benefit in vaping, only eventual health care costs.

Originally Posted by berettafan

And can we quit pretending this whole pot thing is about health benefits and deal with it as well?

The heath benefits of marijuana are real and substantial. It stimulates appetite in cancer and anorexia. It can also relieve pain. Don't ignore its current benefits just because it has been misused for decades.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I would say that maybe you two should do a little less reading on this subject and spend a bit more time in the trenches, but I would not wish that on anyone.

So, how much time have you two spent in the ER with an overdosing loved one? How much time have you two spent visiting "recovering" loved ones at in-patient rehab clinics? When was the last time you gave a loved one a ride to their favorite methadone clinic?

This has been a lifetime odyssey for me with two people with whom I have been very, very close. One was once a beautiful young lady who I was living with, who I thought at one time I might like to marry. The other is an old buddy I have known since grade school. Both are hopeless addicts. Folks like you might call them "opioid addicts", but any of the doctors, nurses, and counselors who have devoted their lives to helping these people will tell you there is no such thing. They are just "addicts" - opioids might be preferred, but anything - literally anything - will do in a pinch.

I've honestly thought I had lost these two more times than I can remember. On life support in some ER, either detoxing from some heroin overdose or from consuming unfathomable quantities of alcohol.

The next step is often yet another "rehab" clinic. Don't let anyone fool you, though, I have never seen these to be effective, and I've seen, and spent time in, a dozen of them if I've been in one. Money grubbing bastards being fed a steady stream of patients by the courts more so than loving families.

Once through all of that, it's off to the methadone clinic. They usually cannot drive anymore (either legally or economically - they no longer have a car). What a horribly depressing place to bring a loved one.

Both of these people have lost everything. More than once. Both are college grads who, off and on, have held demanding jobs. Which, of course, they have lost time and time again, along with their families and homes. Their addictions are that strong - they are intelligent people who should know better.

I've held both of them in my arms while waiting for that ambulance that takes far too long to get there. I've held both of them in my arms in the ER, when they didn't even know I was there. I've held both of them in my arms in rehab clinic after rehab clinic. I've sat through their counseling sessions with them at those clinics, desperate to learn what I could do to help. All to no avail, really, in the end.

And you know what the salient message given at those clinics, by the doctors, by the nurses, by the counselors might be? It's always been "sorry buttercup, this is all your fault". You made these decisions. You got yourself into this situation. Only you can get yourself out. Personal responsibility. No scapegoats. No one else to blame.

It would be horribly counter productive to allow these people to believe that someone else is to blame for their troubles. That is the medical and psychological professionals' opinion on this, not mine. I've been hearing it first hand for over 30 years. I've read more material that they have provided me than either of you two even know exists. I've done my level best, one on one, with two people very dear to me for over 30 years. And I've lost. I wouldn't wish this on anyone.

I'm sorry for your troubles.

But you have your anecdotes and I have mine. My ex-wife was a prescription drug addict, as was my mother. Neither of them EVER took a pill that wasn't prescribed by a doctor. Their lives were a mess as a result of the drugs. And yes, I've been in the ER with my ex (usually withdrawal) too many times to remember.
I know from personal experience that your statement, "If their advice on dosages for their products were scrupulously followed by doctors and patients, there would be no problems," is nonsense.

[Chocaholic]

Yet you’ve proclaimed the doctor harbors little/no responsibility. Hmmm.

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

The heath benefits of marijuana are real and substantial. It stimulates appetite in cancer and anorexia. It can also relieve pain. Don't ignore its current benefits just because it has been misused for decades.

+1000% on this. Cannabis is the single most effective pain reliever I have used, and, with multiple surgeries--both knees replaced, rotator cuff, dental implants--I've used them all. Thankful I live in a state that is not constrained by puritanical foolishness.

Originally Posted by Sooner or later

The Sackler family would give up ownership of Purdue Pharma and pay $3 billion of its own money to settle thousands of state and federal lawsuits over its role in fueling the nation’s opioid epidemic.

The settlement, according to a tentative negotiated agreement described to NBC and The New York Times, would be worth between $10 billion and $12 billion.

The prescription painkiller OxyContin, introduced by Purdue in 1996, helped make the Sacklers America’s 19th richest family with a combined net worth of $13 billion, according to Forbes. The company has been accused of aggressively marketing the powerful and addictive painkiller even as it became clear that the drugs weren’t as safe as advertised.

At least 28 U.S. states have filed lawsuits against Purdue.


The settlement would require the company to restructure under a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing which would turn the private company into a “public beneficiary trust,” allowing the profits from all drug sales, including OxyContin, to go to the plaintiffs of the lawsuits.

The company also would agree to give its addiction treatment drugs free to the public. Those drugs are currently under development.

The company said in a statement emailed to NBC, which first reported the settlement, and The Times: “While Purdue Pharma is prepared to defend itself vigorously in the opioid litigation, the company has made clear that it sees little good coming from years of wasteful litigation and appeals. The people and communities affected by the opioid crisis need help now. Purdue believes a constructive global resolution is the best path forward, and the company is actively working with the state attorneys general and other plaintiffs to achieve this outcome.”

News of the proposed settlement comes a day after an Oklahoma state judge ordered Johnson & Johnson to pay $572 million for its part in the state’s opioid crisis. Oklahoma reached a $270 million settlement with Purdue Pharma and an $85 million settlement with Israel-based Teva Pharmaceuticals.

I'd say those dastardly attorneys did a pretty good job. Everyone: hug an attorney today!

On the issue of outside counsel in the OK case, I'd be astonished if they were paid on anything other than an hourly basis by the state. That is important because in private litigation like this, attorneys generally get a contingency--usually 35-50% of the judgment, which leads to ridiculous payouts and skews the process. When the government litigates, though, the attorneys have no such personal financial incentive. We just did it for that warm tingly feeling it gave us inside to seek justice on behalf of You The People.

[Sooner or later]

Damn, I hate agreeing with you, Corgi....

[Jeff Higgins]

Thanks for the replies, guys - it sounds like a number of us have been down this road, or are even still on it. Like I said, I wouldn't wish this on anyone.

The stories of my two friends are a little bit different from yours, or from the core of the topic at hand. Neither one, as far as I know, ever got their drugs from a doctor or from any sort of a clinic. Their addictions arose from the use of "street drugs", from pot to coke to meth to eventually heroin. Yes, once they became widely available on the street, they began using prescription pain meds as well.

I guess we could blame the "pushers" or drug dealers for getting them hooked. Those dealers didn't put that first rolled up Benjamin up their noses, though, although they probably did lay out that first line. They didn't put that first needle in their arm, either. Those were all personal choices they made. No one else to blame.

And yes, I agree, that having been through multiple failures of "the system" to treat and cure them, I absolutely think we need another way. I alluded to the greed of the "rehab" centers and clinics. They very worst thing they can do, from their perspective, is to find a way to successfully treat addicts. They absolutely rely upon repeat customers. They absolutely rely upon court referrals for mandatory treatments ordered in plea deals and sentencing. Everyone who has spent any amount of time around these operations knows full well their dismal "success" rate. And "success" is only measured as a function of how many never return. If they don't come back, it must have been "successful", right? Anyone who has watched a loved one go in and out of these various outfits knows better. Yet the money keeps flowing their way.

Some of you have mentioned doctors that way over prescribe. I absolutely agree that is a problem. I believe that ultimately, if we are to blame anyone, they carry the lion's share of it. They are supposed to be the buffer between their patients and overzealous drug company salesmen who may be over selling their products while minimizing the risks of those products. Again, that is a salesman's job, to maximize sales and profits. That is the goal of any business, and a noble goal at that.

So, again (I have asked this before), do we hold every business to the standards of honesty and integrity of which you would like to see these drug companies held? Any sort of somewhat sketchy claims about anyone's products should result in similar prosecution? I mean, there have been lives ruined by any number of grossly inflated claims by manufacturers in every field. Cool collars, for example...

[KFC911]

I thought the atty behind this was the same one from the tobacco MSA (25B...I think)....he's just getting started and not getting anything but what Mick can't....$atiSfaction....

Rock on...

Jeff, Greg, all you guys....a bunch of us have stories and have lived with this. It just sux. I do not have the "addictive" gene....or whatever...just pure luck, and haven't taken a pill in 4 decades, but I have watched.

I wuz prescribed a whole bottle of Percocets for a totally painless knee surgery tho' years ago....no caveats, etc. I never got the script filled...asked for 2 tablets instead...I knew better in '87.

The $ should be setting up rehabs whatever it takes....no waiting lists for those who "want" help...those who don't...can't be...until they "want".

Best to you all!

[gordner]

It is not just doctors over prescribing, a big part of the issues is this perception we have developed in the modern age that doctors should be able to remove all discomfort. Injuries and surgeries etc. hurt, and if you medicate to the point you really don't feel that hurt at all, it is too much. But that is what many patients expect today, a pain free recovery that can only be obtained by opiates and their over use.

[RWebb]

Jeff - I'm sorry to hear about your friends.

No, we don't hold every business to the standards of honesty and integrity for potentially hazardous drug manf. or distr. companies.

We hold companies to different stds. depending on what they do, and the risk to the public. Was that a real question? (aircraft manfs. are a sterling example)

The same goes for adults vs. kids, and adults in different jobs or positions (officers vs. enlisted).

[greglepore]

The problem with the rehab industry is that it until recently was all 12 step. 12 step is an anecdotally successful program for alcohol that is entirely out of place with opiates. The "no drugs" mantra prohibits suboxone, and suboxone, good or bad, keeps people alive.

CBT has recently entered the market. Unfortunately, its at the high end. I have an business associate that paid over 250k out of pocket and thankfully had success, but how many families in america can pull that off?

[Rawknees'Turbo]

Originally Posted by berettafan

. . .

And can we quit pretending this whole pot thing is about health benefits and deal with it as well?

It should be made legal countrywide - totally asinine that it was ever made illegal (and this coming from someone that doesn't use it).

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by RWebb

Jeff - I'm sorry to hear about your friends.

No, we don't hold every business to the standards of honesty and integrity for potentially hazardous drug manf. or distr. companies.

We hold companies to different stds. depending on what they do, and the risk to the public. Was that a real question? (aircraft manfs. are a sterling example)

The same goes for adults vs. kids, and adults in different jobs or positions (officers vs. enlisted).

Thanks, Randy. It's been a tough go. I have no idea where or how it will end, but that's only because I'm still in denial of knowing exactly how it will end. There is only one end for these two, just like everyone else in the same boat. Jesus, I don't want to see it, but I know I will. It's just a matter of when.

And yes, we absolutely hold airplane manufacturers to probably even higher standards than these drug companies. We do not, however, hold them responsible when customers deliberately ignore the operational and maintenance requirements they provide with their aircraft.

I can definitely see where an aircraft manufacturer would be held responsible if they deliberately oversold the capabilities of their aircraft, and hid any known risks and defects. Just look at what my old employer is going through with the 737 Max and its MACS. What a horrible schitt show.

We do, however, live in different worlds, aircraft manufacturers and drug companies. We live in a world of easily verified engineering absolutes, so it is mostly very difficult to behave in this manner. Lots of oversight as well, although in the cited example, we see where that failed as well.

Drug company products are, in sharp contrast, so full of intangibles and variables driven by any one patient's reaction to their products. Witness how many people legitimately take opioid pain killers with no lasting addiction whatsoever. I would venture to say the vast majority who have taken them did not fall into addiction. There are millions, nay billions of people who have legitimately been helped by these products. That makes it much harder to speak in absolutes than it is in my old field. Much easier to hedge by saying "some people may...", where in aircraft, there are not very many "maybes". It's not nearly as situational.

So, are the manufacturers to be held responsible for the addictive behaviors of a very small percentage of patients? I have a hard time with that.

[Sooner or later]

The guideline that J&J issued was that is was safe to prescribe more. Their own advisory board told them the path they were on was over stepping the truth. When addiction symptoms showed up J&J said it was psuedo addiction. It wasn't really addiction, it was people hurting and the solution was more medication. Even though they knew that statement was false. Their own advisory board had told them so.

Boeing produces a new airliner with a state of the art auto pilot. Internal testing shows that their are problems with the auto pilot. Engineering tells Boeing that it isn't as safe as they plan to advertise. There are problems that could cause catastrophic failure. Boeing ignores engineering and starts advertising the plane and autopilot system as state of the art safe. Boeing fails to tell it's sales staff of the problem. The sales staff passed out literature stating the safety of the new system. Information that is at odds with what engineering stated.

The sales force goes out and sells the known defective airliner. Highest sales in Boeing history. Profits are rolling in. Buyers use the system as Boeing specified. Planes start falling out of the sky.

[red-beard]

They are going after Doctors and Pharmacies in Houston. These are federal charges. But it looks like this was an operation not just "pill mills", but the pills were then re-collected and sold in an organized manor.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/local/feds-to-announce-arrests-in-opioid-investigation

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by red-beard

They are going after Doctors and Pharmacies in Houston. These are federal charges. But it looks like this was an operation not just "pill mills", but the pills were then re-collected and sold in an organized manor.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/local/feds-to-announce-arrests-in-opioid-investigation

Like I said. More docs and pharmacists need to be prosecuted.

Everybody wanted in on the money making machine. We ain't seen nuttin' yet.