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The Unsettler
 
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When is a spoon not a spoon

Interesting situation.

Apparently since the lower can not fire a round on its own it does not meet the technical definition of a firearm and lawyers are, successfully, using the argument to get their clients off.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/design-ar-15-derail-charges-tied-popular-rifle-68252403

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Old 01-14-2020, 08:23 AM
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Perfectly logical, reasonable situation. It cannot fire a round, so it is not a firearm. It can't get much simpler. My torque wrench, for example, cannot fire a round either, so it is not a firearm. These folks are seeking to bend and twist and distort language, logic, and reason to redefine what they would like to be considered a "firearm". They should not be allowed to do so.
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Old 01-14-2020, 08:51 AM
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At first, the strategy among those in government who favor keeping the status quo was to quietly dismiss charges when this defense was raised so as not to set a precedent. Someone messed up (this strategy) by letting this get in front of a judge.

Now the media is attempting to create a moral panic. Won't someone think of the children!
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Old 01-14-2020, 08:53 AM
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You do not have permissi
 
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The wording could be changed to some ambiguous term such as "device structure which directly allows user to fire" or some thing.
Then the lower would be covered, but probably the trigger mech etc might be too, which would result in the same situation.
The regulators need something to qualify as a 'gun' but how does one qualify an assemblage of parts?
A tube nail and hammer would effect the same result.
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Old 01-14-2020, 09:06 AM
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Very interesting. I get what the folks are saying that this is a technicality. But the law is the law, and technicalities are around as checks and balances to prevent injustice. If someone thinks the law is bad and causing problems, then the law should be changed, not interpreted how it's convenient at the time.

The reporter in the video is cute.

The professor made the statement that gun violence, death and injury are going up exponentially. REALLY?
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Old 01-14-2020, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masraum View Post
Very interesting. I get what the folks are saying that this is a technicality. But the law is the law, and technicalities are around as checks and balances to prevent injustice. If someone thinks the law is bad and causing problems, then the law should be changed, not interpreted how it's convenient at the time.

The reporter in the video is cute.

The professor made the statement that gun violence, death and injury are going up exponentially. REALLY?
They're going down. They only difference is how/what the media reports on.
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Old 01-14-2020, 09:33 AM
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ABC...'nuff said.
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Old 01-14-2020, 09:37 AM
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it's only in the US that a barrel and bolt is freely available and not considered the actual firewarm or at least the critical part of a fire arm.

It's just silly. the only parts that are difficult to DIY, those are freely available.
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Old 01-14-2020, 10:45 AM
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I got curious a long time ago and asked some folks that may have better ideas than me about why certain parts of certain guns are regulated but not the equivalent parts on other guns.

For example, the AR15 lower is the "gun". But the FN-FAL that also has a lower and upper split receiver, the upper is the "gun".

A few choices - the part that the magazine attaches to was mentioned. Well, great. Except that blows out the Ruger Mk * series of pistols, where the upper half (barrel and such) is the gun, and the grip (w/ trigger, etc. and where the magazine is latched in) is unregulated.

The better thought I had was "the parts that let things go full auto". The lower on the M16, and the sear-cut in the upper (as well as ejector block) on the FAL.

What makes it fun for FFLs with the FAL that don't know the FAL is quite often both the upper and lower will have serials, and unless it is a pre-89 ban import OR someone paid for a forced-match-numbered after market receiver for a build, the numbers will never be the same.
Old 01-14-2020, 12:07 PM
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There's a reason why the scar's upper is the receiver.

That and the fn registered trigger packs.
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Old 01-14-2020, 01:39 PM
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Add a bayonet (tine) to a spoon....spork
Old 01-14-2020, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stomachmonkey View Post
Interesting situation.

Apparently since the lower can not fire a round on its own it does not meet the technical definition of a firearm and lawyers are, successfully, using the argument to get their clients off.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/design-ar-15-derail-charges-tied-popular-rifle-68252403
All they have to do to resolve this is introduce a new classifications... "firearm parts".

That's exactly what was done in Australia so you can't even own firearm parts of any kind without a licence.

I've written this many times.
... You have no idea how lucky you are and you can thank your founding fathers for that.

Here's what's happening right now. (Good reading if can't sleep.)

Proposed re-categorisation of lever action shotguns
Lever action shotguns categorisation is being reviewed. Lever action shotguns are presently a category A firearm, irrespective of any magazine capacity. Under proposed re-categorisation, those with a magazine capacity of 5 rounds or less will become a category B firearm. Those with a magazine capacity exceeding 5 rounds will become a category D firearm. Read more


https://www.police.sa.gov.au/services-and-events/firearms-and-weapons/proposed-re-categorization-of-lever-action-shotguns
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:58 PM
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They can do whatever they want now, but there's putting that toothpaste back into the tube. There are so many millions of AR parts out there, the vast majority unserialized and thus untraceable. We have a local website where people trade stripped lowers, so they can't be traced back to the new owner, even if the original buyer filled out a 4473. And then there are the 80% lowers, which just about no antis understand.
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Old 01-14-2020, 08:30 PM
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The New Zealand police arms officer said the Australian law change and "buy back" scheme only returned about 10% of the guns they think are out there.

I don't know what our NZ stat's are but the home depot type places ran out of moisture proof PVC pipe and fittings (for burying and hiding illegal AR15's) in two days.

Me having a hand gun and collector (may own browning machine guns, Uzi's etc) licence I stayed clean and did the buy back thing.

In this country you can buy the uppers or pistol barrels etc over the internet - no questions asked. But the bit (frame) with the serial number is registered against your name and you better have the right licence for it.
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Old 01-14-2020, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Douglas View Post
The New Zealand police arms officer said the Australian law change and "buy back" scheme only returned about 10% of the guns they think are out there.

...
The local cops have no idea....

About 4 years ago my neighbour who is a detective in the firearms branch arrested a guy who was making guns in his shed.
When my neighbour told me about this he said this guy was an "enthusiast" so they went easy on him.
They did write him up and he attended court but wasn't jailed or fined. (conviction without penalty)

It was later discovered that this asshat was selling guns to the local Bikies. They found one of his guns in a drug house raid.
But because it had already gone through the court system and been dealt with they couldn't charge him with anything new.

(And good for you staying legal Bill. There's too much on the line if you don't)
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Old 01-14-2020, 09:12 PM
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lever action ''shotgun'' ?
seen pumps auto even bolts[410]

never seen a lever shot gun who makes that ?
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Old 01-15-2020, 05:11 AM
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very old but J B made for W in the late 1800's
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Old 01-15-2020, 05:16 AM
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very old but J B made for W in the late 1800's
Yup. And Winchester relatively recently did the 94-410, and Henry is doing one currently.
Old 01-15-2020, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC911 View Post
Add a bayonet (tine) to a spoon....spork
LOL. Cleaning coffee off my computer screen now.

IMO some of the anti gun folks are just attention addicts and they use guns for virtue signaling. There are others who genuinely want to make the world a safer place. Bad news: the world is not a safe place. It never has (unless you believe there was a Garden of Eden). There will always be evil or demented people.

In a way, gun regulation does make the world safer but, it is only safer for the criminal that would break in to your home or mug you in the street because they won't fear deadly resistance to their crime. Let's all be anti second amendment and make the a world safer place to commit crime!

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Old 01-15-2020, 01:49 PM
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