Kobe...

[DonDavis]

During my day to day activities, I encounter lots and lots of folks. As such, I encounter many folks and their opinions on what happened. While I'm no pilot, I was around many of them while in the Navy and learned a great deal about aircraft, et al.

I could never criticize a pilot at the controls of an incident that took lives. Not my thing.

I do crave an understanding of the circumstances a pilot is facing/processing when things go badly. But not in a morbid way, more of an attempt to grasp the mountain of data coursing through their brain.

Maybe it's my way of empathy for everyone affected.

[aigel]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

There is a high degree of stabilization in modern helicopters, a very high degree in some.
...

Thanks. Makes sense. I would imagine retrofit would be a big deal. New helicopters probably still suffer being behind due to how hard it is to certify a system.

In the end it is amazing how much old tech is still in the skies. I recall a try out flight for private pilot lessons with my kid. 1972 Cessna ... no upgrades ...

G

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by DonDavis

I could never criticize a pilot at the controls of an incident that took lives. Not my thing.

Nor mine. I haven't written a word about the pilot and won't.

In the accidents investigations I led, the hardest part was obvious pilot error.

Originally Posted by DonDavis

I do crave an understanding of the circumstances a pilot is facing/processing when things go badly. But not in a morbid way, more of an attempt to grasp the mountain of data coursing through their brain.

I had really bad spatial disorientation, vertigo, once in all my years of flying. I was in a Blackhawk as a LCDR at the Sikorsky Factory. It was at night and we were on an instrument flight plan shooting approaches into New Haven.

Remember, at the time I was current instrument pilot, instrument check pilot and I held a special instrument clearance...meaning I could take-off in 0/0 flight conditions. I had also been the East Coast NATOPS check pilot when I was at VX-1. I had about 3,000 hours at the time.

I was flying with a good friend of mine, the XO at the Factory. I meet him when I was an Ensign and he was a LT.

So, the night was actually clear of any weather and the air was smooth. Perfect conditions to practice.

On my third approach, Greg called a simulated wave-off at approach minimum, I called tower and executed wave-off the procedure.

In the climbing right hand turn I snuck a peak outside and got stuck between an instrument scan and a visual scan. With the climbing turn, the lights on Long Island Sound, the hills to my left with light and houses on Long Island itself caused a really eerie spatial disorientation, one I though about 10 seconds more than a should have. I needed to get back on instruments ASAP and failed to do so.

Gregg, doing his jog, called, "airspeed". I had lost my instrument scan as was slowing in a climbing turn. The combination of transitioning back to instruments from a visual scan really geeked me...I told Greg I was getting vertigo: he tried to talk me through it, which in those days was standard procedure. Called tower, wings level, concentrate.

I could not hack it and he took control of the Blackhawk. A minute later I was find, horrifically embarrassed but fine. We went over to Bridgeport Airport for some visual work and then I shot two more approaches at New Have with simulated wave-offs. Got back on the horse.

Pilots experiences extreme spacial disorientation and vertigo often compound the problem because they are simply not thinking, overwhelmed: The body senses and feedback cause distrust of the instruments and the rest is not pretty.

Just do a search "on vertigo as a pilot". Large body of information.

[flipper35]

Would all the stabilization in the world help if the pilot is disoriented? Just curious in a helicopter. A plane you can let go and most will recover themselves, helos seem to want to do the last thing they were told. Sometimes with gusto.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by flipper35

Would all the stabilization in the world help if the pilot is disoriented? Just curious in a helicopter. A plane you can let go and most will recover themselves, helos seem to want to do the last thing they were told. Sometimes with gusto.

This is a good article on vertigo and spacial disorientation. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2013/january/01/fly-well-oh-no-vertigo

A key sentence:

Unlike other in-flight emergencies such as cockpit fire or catastrophic engine failure, the spatially disoriented pilot does not perceive there is anything wrong. The aptly named graveyard spiral occurs after a bank; feeling the nose drop, the pilot pulls back to initiate a climb or reduce perceived rate of descent. A tighter turn ensues that magnifies the effect and leads to a stall, overstressing the aircraft or flying into the ground.

The SH-60B I have the most hours in is extremely stable and had an amazing trim system - NOT an auto pilot.

We had barometric altitude hold, trim hatches so you could basically fly the aircraft with your fingers, coupled hover, etc., etc.

Unfortunately, none of that matters if the onset of certain types of spacial disorientation occurs.

[flipper35]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

This is a good article on vertigo and spacial disorientation. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2013/january/01/fly-well-oh-no-vertigo

A key sentence:

Unlike other in-flight emergencies such as cockpit fire or catastrophic engine failure, the spatially disoriented pilot does not perceive there is anything wrong. The aptly named graveyard spiral occurs after a bank; feeling the nose drop, the pilot pulls back to initiate a climb or reduce perceived rate of descent. A tighter turn ensues that magnifies the effect and leads to a stall, overstressing the aircraft or flying into the ground.

The SH-60B I have the most hours in is extremely stable and had an amazing trim system - NOT an auto pilot.

We had barometric altitude hold, trim hatches so you could basically fly the aircraft with your fingers, coupled hover, etc., etc.

Unfortunately, none of that matters if the onset of certain types of spacial disorientation occurs.

That was my question, thanks.

At Airventure they used to have a cockpit that would spin, kind of like a scrambler fair ride that was fully enclosed and they would have you try to fly a route. That one never got me, but later in a sim (fortunately) I rolled inverted trying to catch the ILS. Sucks to get caught out like that.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by flipper35

That was my question, thanks.

That one never got me, but later in a sim (fortunately) I rolled inverted trying to catch the ILS. Sucks to get caught out like that.

No worries: Hey, I got caught out in a Blackhawk at 1500agl!

I actually loved to fly instruments, night flying, etc. The SH-60B did not have an ILS but the UH-60L did.

ILS more better than TACAN approaches

[flipper35]

Recovery from unusual attitudes while under the hood was my favorite training.

I imagine approaches to a frigate would be slightly demanding.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by flipper35

Recovery from unusual attitudes while under the hood was my favorite training

Mine as well. The procedures differed slightly from primary fixed wing training to helos, which was an interesting transition.

Originally Posted by flipper35

I imagine approaches to a frigate would be slightly demanding.

All sea state dependent. The Frigates I flew off of had a really well design deck lighting system, including an artificial horizon reference system that stayed level with the horizon as the ship pitched and rolled.

Over the deck you could fly form on the thing and stay calm.

We also had instrument approaches and the ability to count down distance.

You can probably tell I ave been on a VTC fo the past few hours

[greglepore]

It seems particularly tragic that they were seconds from climbing out of the imc. But if the pilot was already disorientated, would that have mattered?

[flipper35]

Clearing the clouds and seeing the horizon would have (should have) made a huge difference, yes.

[speeder]

I know very little about aviation but even in the absence of the fancy "terrain avoidance" feature that it did not have, doesn't every aircraft have a simple gauge that tells you how far from earth you are? As in, how high above ground?

[javadog]

Originally Posted by speeder

I know very little about aviation but even in the absence of the fancy "terrain avoidance" feature that it did not have, doesn't every aircraft have a simple gauge that tells you how far from earth you are? As in, how high above ground?

Altimeter, yes. Gives you height above sea level, more or less.

Height above terrain, no, not on all aircraft. That requires a radar altimeter. Don't know if that helicopter had one.

I think the biggest question might be whether or not the pilot had a good scan of the instruments going.

[Cajundaddy]

Originally Posted by speeder

I know very little about aviation but even in the absence of the fancy "terrain avoidance" feature that it did not have, doesn't every aircraft have a simple gauge that tells you how far from earth you are? As in, how high above ground?

Here is my take on what happened in the final moments. We will probably never know exactly.

The pilot was running out of VFR conditions as the rising terrain was meeting a thick fog ceiling at around 1500' elevation. He attempted an emergency pop-up to get above the soup with cloud tops at 2400'. Not far to go but with no visual reference it is much more difficult in a helo than it seems. From the data he made it to 2300' elevation before becoming disoriented and rolling into a steep left downward spiral at the rate of 4000'/minute. At that rate of descent all the gauges are rolling and it is very difficult to get any useful info from them. With only about 1000' of room before finding the earth he had maybe 5-6 seconds to regain control and no reference to do it. He ran out of options.

Their final rate of decent was roughly dropping like a stone and no terrain avoidance would have saved them.

Disclaimer: These are my own personal views and I am not NTSB or an aviation expert like many others here. Just a best guess from observing the data and my own experiences.

[pmax]

LAPD, some things will never change.

https://www.tmz.com/2020/02/28/la-county-sheriff-kobe-bryant-crash-site-photos/

9:11 AM PT -- We're told the Sheriff's Dept. has known about this for 3 weeks. The trainee who showed the photos to a woman in a bar did so a few days after the crash.

[ossiblue]

Originally Posted by pmax

LA county sheriff, some things will never change.

https://www.tmz.com/2020/02/28/la-county-sheriff-kobe-bryant-crash-site-photos/

fify

[flipper35]

Originally Posted by Cajundaddy

Here is my take on what happened in the final moments. We will probably never know exactly.

The pilot was running out of VFR conditions as the rising terrain was meeting a thick fog ceiling at around 1500' elevation. He attempted an emergency pop-up to get above the soup with cloud tops at 2400'. Not far to go but with no visual reference it is much more difficult in a helo than it seems. From the data he made it to 2300' elevation before becoming disoriented and rolling into a steep left downward spiral at the rate of 4000'/minute. At that rate of descent all the gauges are rolling and it is very difficult to get any useful info from them. With only about 1000' of room before finding the earth he had maybe 5-6 seconds to regain control and no reference to do it. He ran out of options.

Their final rate of decent was roughly dropping like a stone and no terrain avoidance would have saved them.

Disclaimer: These are my own personal views and I am not NTSB or an aviation expert like many others here. Just a best guess from observing the data and my own experiences.

Should have still had a basic six pack which would have told him up from down. That said, that helo isn't like a Loach. More akin to taking the limo on the autocross vs a Miata, everything just take a bit more time.

[Rikao4]

in order for me to get on board..
and I have done so many times..
2 pilots..
repeat..2 pilots..
and the mechanic who works on it..
is riding along....
been on board when things went south..
the extra eyes and hands are invaluable..

Rika

[pmax]

Interesting that was my first question I had in mind.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Report-Kobe-Bryant-pilot-may-have-been-15347525.php

One of the 40 documents posted by the NTSB includes a 215-page safety report that concludes with an article written by the former president of the Helicopter Association International titled “Land the damned helicopter.”

The late Matt Zuccaro wrote the commentary in 2013 after becoming frustrated reading NTSB crash reports and noting that most could have been prevented by a pilot deciding to land as fuel ran low or weather deteriorated.

“Why don’t pilots exercise one of the most unique and valuable capabilities of vertical flight — namely, land the damn helicopter!" Zuccaro wrote. "In a high percentage of crashes, this simple act would break the chain of events and prevent the accident.”

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by pmax

Interesting that was my first question I had in mind.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Report-Kobe-Bryant-pilot-may-have-been-15347525.php

One of the 40 documents posted by the NTSB includes a 215-page safety report that concludes with an article written by the former president of the Helicopter Association International titled “Land the damned helicopter.”

The late Matt Zuccaro wrote the commentary in 2013 after becoming frustrated reading NTSB crash reports and noting that most could have been prevented by a pilot deciding to land as fuel ran low or weather deteriorated.

“Why don’t pilots exercise one of the most unique and valuable capabilities of vertical flight — namely, land the damn helicopter!" Zuccaro wrote. "In a high percentage of crashes, this simple act would break the chain of events and prevent the accident.”

Seems like a reasonable question. However, just because a helicopter has VTOL capability doesn't mean that it can do so safely in all conditions/instances. IIRC (?) in this case he was attempting to clear mountainous terrain. Probably not many suitable "off airport" LZs there, especially in zero viz. Plus, (from the reports so far) it wasn't a fuel starvation or mechanical/engine-out issue. The weather certainly seemed to be a factor though, and I would'n't be surprised if he at least thought about or suggested an abort/return/alternate plan. But, who knows what demands and/or pressure the passengers put on the pilot to potentially make him push past his comfort/experience/proficiency level.

I did note the following from the above article:

"John Cox, an aviation safety consultant, said the helicopter’s erratic flight path — the aircraft slowed, climbed, then banked to one side while sinking rapidly — are telltale signs of a pilot becoming disoriented in conditions that make it hard to see terrain or the horizon."

The "banked to one side while sinking rapidly" part makes me think it may have been a low-RPM retreating blade stall, from trying to pull too much pitch to clear terrain. That's usually hard to do, but if that "bank" was to the left, it would fit.