Challenge to Pelican Engineering -> Let's design and build an open-source Ventilator!

[GH85Carrera]

There was an interesting article in today's paper about a company that makes just some of the components of a ventilator.



This is a special type of glass, with the holes "drilled" by ultrasonic machining. Very high precision manufacturing that is not going to be done in the basement of some guys house. Certainly the F1 teams or GM will be able to do it, but of course it is just one part of a complex machine.

[DonDavis]

Yet, someone will read that and think "Hey, they're making vents out of glass now! I can do that in my basement, for cheap!"

[NY65912]

I was on a vent for 24 hrs post neck surgery, probably due to age, weight and asthma. I was out the entire time. When the woke me up to pull the tube out of my throat I could not have cared less. If I need a vent because of Covid 19, please put me to sleep so I can go quietly and hopefully they use something better than this....

https://youtu.be/D6yTAD36RB8

[DonDavis]

Mike, that's how the vast majority are on vents.
Being fully conscious on a vent is a no go...unless fully restrained.

With the exception of paralysis patients. They can be fully awake, but for obvious reasons.

You think the gag reflex is strong, try existing with intubation. Patients will, and do, grab and pull immediately.

Your video is a crude respirator, at best.

[DonDavis]

While we're at it, lets throw in "put me asleep for that".

Take a look at exactly what it takes to accomplish that. Folks generally have no idea how close to death they are while under anesthesia.

And, just how many times the monitoring Anesthesiologist pulls a patient from that line of death, and then repeats that process throughout the surgery.

Being sedated enough to prevent a patient from ripping out the tube takes strong drugs.
They are horrible when used for long periods.

No one wants that. During this challenging time, the term vent, respirator, crank up production, anyone in a shop can do it, F1, GMC whatever...is just absurd.

If they mean, "making some parts" for vents, then say that.

Cuz they damn sure ain't making an actual ventilator.

[NY65912]

Don,

Agreed, anesthesiologists are unreal at what they do. The video of the vent was for entertainment purposes only.

However, if I'm on a vent due to this virus I am glad I will be out.

Cheer

[DonDavis]

Btw, Anesthesiologists are not present when putting a patient on a vent, prescribing physician will also prescribe the strong sedation that will be needed.

Do not confuse that with what's used during General Anesthesia for surgery.

I'm speaking to everyone, not just Mike.

[cstreit]

So one of the reasons ventilators are so expensive is that they are life-saving equipment which means that tons of redundancy and reliability must be built into them. todays litigous society.

If someone dies because a home-grown one fails? Hospitals aren't going to take liability for that.

..a much more promising approach seems to be adaptors that allow ventilators to scale up to multiple patients. I think this is a much more realistic approach.

[Mahler9th]

These are challenging times.

I can envision lots of litigation as the pandemic proceeds and in the aftermath. I can envision that even with austere mechanisms to "flatten the curve," there may be needs for huge bailout dollars for hospitals, et cetera. Remember, they generally operate on some pretty tight margins ...

Ayway, I am pretty sure that global efforts to help with respect to vent availability through a combination of new designs and expansion of manufacturing of existing designs is being folks highly expert in regulation and risk management, and bunches of government lawyers are also being consulted.

It is all very challenging.

[Captain Ahab Jr]

Ventilator built by Airbus and F1 approved in the UK

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52309294

[93nav]

New, simple ventilator out of Austin TX. Going to the FDA for approval.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/air-boost-begins-large-scale-153700964.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9rRlLhx7lw&t=

Not sure if they will be needed, at least in the USA, at this time, this pandemic. But if if gets approved, may be useful in other countries or our next pandemic.

[Reiver]

Where is there a shortage?

[pmax]

Let's build testing kits !

[island911]

LOL

nice!

[Won]

I heard these guys are back with testing kits: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29459896

The UK government pulled the plug on the Project Pitlane "automated breathing bag" device very similar to the one posted above. Their logic being the situation has changed and the resource would be better spent on ramping up real ventilator production. A local company, Penlon, has been running 24hr shifts with a lot of furloughed F1 staff and others volunteering for this purpose. I think we agreed that this was the best approach when we thought there would be a ventilator shortage. Good effort from everyone and every company involved in this all over the world.

I'm lucky to have been part of a small group at work designing equipment to keep the medics safe from virus-laden aerosol. We were looking at sensors and came across this from Honeywell catalogue. I thought if anyone still had any doubt as to why a ventilator is not something you can cook up in the backyard, this makes it pretty clear. Thank you pros.



Part of our required reading. Some good info here I thought, straight from the front line. I think you just have to sign up:
https://www.gotostage.com/channel/c4d2288975ce453daf8d9e09860c8da4

[pavulon]

It's good that the situation has not graduated to a place where automated hand bag ventilation was required. That would have definitely been a desperate spot.

Mechanical ventilation has gone through a few generations and I believe the most advanced ventilators are now using turbine compressors for positive pressure (or at least the most advanced anesthesia machine ventilators do AFAIK). Sick people require advanced ventilation techniques. While bellows and pistons were leading edge at one time, technology has advanced.

[pmax]

Did everyone get the same daily memo ?

March 17, 2020
N.Y. May Need 18,000 Ventilators Very Soon. It Is Far Short of That.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/nyregion/ny-coronavirus-ventilators.html

Doctors are increasingly anxious that New York — like other states — won’t have enough of the breathing machines that are key to fighting the coronavirus.

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2020-03-17/hospitals-fear-shortage-of-ventilators-for-virus-patients
Hospitals Fear Shortage of Ventilators for Virus Patients
U.S. hospitals bracing for a possible onslaught of coronavirus patients with pneumonia and other breathing difficulties could face a critical shortage of mechanical ventilators.

By Associated Press, Wire Service Content March 17, 2020, at 5:30 p.m.
By LINDSEY TANNER and LINDA A. JOHNSON, AP Medical Writers

The Society of Critical Care Medicine has projected that 960,000 coronavirus patients in the U.S. may need to be put on ventilators at one point or another during the outbreak.

[93nav]

Yes, it is good that we have not had to use any of these DIY ventilators, yet. But:

- The pandemic is not over yet
- The pandemic does not just affect the developed world
- There will be future pandemics and these designs may be beneficial then

I hope that all the DIY designs for ventilators, masks, face sheilds etc are being saved or archived somewhere. This would of course require long term thinking which is always in short supply.

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by 93nav

Yes, it is good that we have not had to use any of these DIY ventilators, yet. But:

- The pandemic is not over yet
- The pandemic does not just affect the developed world
- There will be future pandemics and these designs may be beneficial then

I hope that all the DIY designs for ventilators, masks, face sheilds etc are being saved or archived somewhere. This would of course require long term thinking which is always in short supply.

I'm going to respectfully disagree. Instead, we (the US) should maintain an adequate supply of "real", proven ventilators, masks, face shields, swabs, etc. and have them strategically located in numerous places to be distrubuted to states as needed. Making it up as you go along would be a disaster like this has been. We need to learn from this....

But "we" probably won't ...

[93nav]

I agree that we should keep a stockpile of real ventilators and other medical equipment. But, as you pointed out, we probably will not, at least not as time goes on and the pandemic becomes more of a distant memory. I am a realist.

The thing to think about is, we now have 3D printing which is relatively new, what new technology will there be in the future which would allow for the creation of much more complex devices than we can today. And faster.

To add to my original post, what really needs to be saved, are the requirements, specifications, or "the why" ventilators are designed (hardware and software) the way they are.

Originally Posted by KC911

I'm going to respectfully disagree. Instead, we (the US) should maintain an adequate supply of "real", proven ventilators, masks, face shields, swabs, etc. and have them strategically located in numerous places to be distrubuted to states as needed. Making it up as you go along would be a disaster like this has been. We need to learn from this....

But "we" probably won't ...