Challenge to Pelican Engineering -> Let's design and build an open-source Ventilator!

[Mahler9th]

From my network...

Related, and perhaps of interest is this upcoming Webinar:

Technology Solutions Addressing COVID-19

Highlighting the Top 8 Startups Addressing the Coronavirus

https://www.plugandplaytechcenter.com/events/technology-solutions-addressing-covid-19/

Free of charge. I will try to attend.

[Captain Ahab Jr]

Originally Posted by Mahler9th

F1 cars are complex machines operated in extreme circumstances where life versus death can be on the line, and I would surmise that nearly every F1 team, and possibly teams in junior professional formulas have operational experience and practices very much like businesses that work in regulated industries like aircraft and medical device/equipment manufacturing.

Manufacturing components, sub-systems and even complete systems based on existing designs I would surmise would be right in their wheelhouses.

I would also surmise that their design talents could also be helpful, but perhaps less impactful.

And I would also hypothesize that they might have some realistic limits in terms of manufacturing output. But anything is better than nothing.

Your surmising's are pretty spot on but I think you under estimate manufacturing output that the larger teams have in house and available through their network of small, dynamic suppliers

All F1 machine shops are capable of running 24hrs, speed is the name of the game before a car a car hits a track so programming/machining time will be compressed within time limits beyond most other industries

I've on more than one occasion designed a complex machined part finishing the design late at night only to be presented with finished components within less than a day

An F1 team I'm sure would out design, out machine and out manufacture any comparable sized defense company with regards to timescales

Speed of working is one of the reason's why Elon Musk came calling to F1 teams to try and poach people for his SpaceX program

20yrs of F1 design/design management makes me think any team would be an excellent asset for a country to have in contributing to a war effort

[Mahler9th]

Captain Ahab Jr:

Thanks for posting that. My name is Mike. Pleased to meet you.

I have a pretty good idea about medical device and equipment manufacturing output after 40 years... all of these things require definitions to make comparisons.

Anytime I "connect" with anybody that has F1 tecnhical experience, my heart jumps. I just love those machines. One of my business partners got a private tour at McLaren last Summer-- the pictures he shared with me (with their permission) made my heart skip a beat.

I met an ex-Red Bull/Ferrari/McLaren F1 techical professional through these Forums back in '18... very nice young man and very accomplished. Hey helped confirm my ideas about teh level of techical depth in F1. He is an expert in machine learning-- I hope that he and his family, friends and colleagues are all okay in Spain.

[Captain Ahab Jr]

Originally Posted by Mahler9th

Captain Ahab Jr:

Thanks for posting that. My name is Mike. Pleased to meet you.

I have a pretty good idea about medical device and equipment manufacturing output after 40 years... all of these things require definitions to make comparisons.

Anytime I "connect" with anybody that has F1 tecnhical experience, my heart jumps. I just love those machines. One of my business partners got a private tour at McLaren last Summer-- the pictures he shared with me (with their permission) made my heart skip a beat.

I met an ex-Red Bull/Ferrari/McLaren F1 techical professional through these Forums back in '18... very nice young man and very accomplished. Hey helped confirm my ideas about teh level of techical depth in F1. He is an expert in machine learning-- I hope that he and his family, friends and colleagues are all okay in Spain.

Pleased to meet you Mike, pleasure is all mine,

Hope no one reads my post as F1 is the better than all other industries/engineering, it's not that good but is the best at what it does

I may well have worked with the guy you mentioned as F1 is quite a small world

Forgot to add over 10yrs ago a few colleagues and myself were invited to a NASA conference at Langley. Had to jump through quite a few security hoops to get on site.

The guys there were extremely interested in understanding more about our rapid speed of working. Was an extremely interesting trip for me, learnt a lot

I'm sure how ever F1 gets involved with increasing ventilator quantities/supply it will only be a benefit to the poor unfortunate few that need one to help them survive

[Mahler9th]

Yeah I know a bit about high levels of tech in racing... including IMSA and Indy Car. But F1 tech is most interesting to me.

I have never been to Langley. My (late) best friend worked there for years after 9/11 on the CIA campus and I think there is a building there named after him.

The world is small.

I agree, whatever F1 is able to do will be highly welcomed.

And I hope that the "few" gets fewer in coming weeks and months.

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by Captain Ahab Jr

Your surmising's are pretty spot on but I think you under estimate manufacturing output that the larger teams have in house and available through their network of small, dynamic suppliers

All F1 machine shops are capable of running 24hrs, speed is the name of the game before a car a car hits a track so programming/machining time will be compressed within time limits beyond most other industries

I've on more than one occasion designed a complex machined part finishing the design late at night only to be presented with finished components within less than a day

An F1 team I'm sure would out design, out machine and out manufacture any comparable sized defense company with regards to timescales

Speed of working is one of the reason's why Elon Musk came calling to F1 teams to try and poach people for his SpaceX program

20yrs of F1 design/design management makes me think any team would be an excellent asset for a country to have in contributing to a war effort

I really enjoyed Amazon's "Grand Prix Driver" episode in which Honda was having trouble with getting their new ICE to fire up. The McLaren guys produced a 3-D drawing, papers to authorize production, and had it ready in less time than it took to get the factory in Sakura to sign the OK to produce the part.

[cstreit]

Here's another way to look at it. THere are tens of thousands of 3D printers out there and people willing to help. It may mean that certain components are throw-away instead of reusable, but thats acceptable in my mind. ...it also may mean systems are less than perfect in some cases.

...but if you were gasping for breath and the hospital was out of commercial respirators, then the Doctor says "Hey we have this other respirator. Its not quite as good or quite as sterile, do you want to use it?"

...what's your response?

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by cstreit

Here's another way to look at it. THere are tens of thousands of 3D printers out there and people willing to help. It may mean that certain components are throw-away instead of reusable, but thats acceptable in my mind. ...it also may mean systems are less than perfect in some cases.

...but if you were gasping for breath and the hospital was out of commercial respirators, then the Doctor says "Hey we have this other respirator. Its not quite as good or quite as sterile, do you want to use it?"

...what's your response?

Sterile is pretty much a either or thing. Like slightly pregnant. Either it is, or isn't for the most part.

Exposing a critical patient to more bacteria is never ideal. That said, no doubt many people have had emergency tracheotomies with a ball point pen from someone's pocket and survived because of it.

[svandamme]

I'm sure none of this is FDA approved...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-8125219/Ventilators-modified-help-FOUR-coronavirus-patients-scientists-say.html

[Won]

Update on collective F1 effort on ventilators: at least two streams being studied/manufactured: an existing, approved design, and another concept that sounds remarkably similar to the Pandemic Ventilator in the original post. I really hope we don't have to resort to the latter, but always have plan B, or C, or D...

The UK government published this, for those who are interested/can help:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-ventilator-supply-specification/rapidly-manufactured-ventilator-system-specification?fbclid=IwAR1RT35k95aqSxih9aH_r0LWg__ jhgmYUyOzGz2XRvS8Qy519ht_xNHub5g



You were absolutely right, Mike. They used the exact same wording regarding systems approach to this as highlighted...

Although I lack any medical background, I can at least get a sense of the technical requirements from this. I have to say, when I picture the situation in which a ventilator would be required based on its operational description, is certainly a grim one. Some of you already knew this; all the more respect for the people who are designing and operating them, and sympathies for those whose life will depend on it.

[Won]

One more: https://oxvent.org/

[Won]

https://dgiluz.wordpress.com/2020/03/23/its-working/amp/

[Mahler9th]

Fantastic! Thanks for posting.

Hopefully similar efforts will help, including efforts to create more of the type needed for intubation which are likely required for some patients.

[tdw28210]

University of Minnesota's effort - MacGyver style

https://www.startribune.com/university-of-minnesota-is-going-full-on-macgyver-against-covid-19/569000032/

[Won]

Just to show that fast-tracked approval is possible if everyone pulls in the same direction:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/148840/mercedesdesigned-breathing-aid-approved-by-nhs

So it's not a full combo deal ventilator but a CPAP machine as some of you mentioned early on in the thread.

[island911]

Because I have massive experience with product development, plastics and life-saving medical device design (and diagnostic med, and treatment devices) I have not been in this thread much.

If we needed more gurneys would we challenge engineers to reinvent the wheel?

We have working vent designs. I have no doubt that manufacturing more of those is the most expeditious path to more vents. That snorkel mask is cringe worthy.

[DonDavis]

^^^ Hear, hear!

Mixing terminology in healthcare is deadly. Not "can be", but IS deadly.

No one is making a fully functional, homemade ventilator. They are attempting to make respirators. A rather significant difference.

What Won posted appears to be a certainly viable....respirator, for a conscious and cooperating patient. See the smile and thumbs up?

Try strapping that thing on someone in distress, gasping for breaths. Or possibly even combative.

( here's a side assignment for everyone, take a look at how a toddler is restrained to acquire an x-ray image... then report back )

Those not in healthcare attempting to build an "open source ventilator" makes about as much sense as the Jiffy Lube guy does on an F1 Team.

[Won]

Originally Posted by DonDavis

the Jiffy Lube guy does on an F1 Team.

You might be surprised...

Dyson designed a ventilator, a full blown one as far as I understand, but still need approval. Part of F1's "Project Pitlane" effort is to ramp up the production of existing (real) ventilator designs. Elsewhere, people like Daimler group are doing what they can to help.

Assuming some of these are actually being used (none of us are in Italy to verify, are we?), and that their medics are also qualified professionals, then I think it just goes to show how dire the situation is. Personally, I would rather have the scuba mask connected to F1 CPAP machine than nothing.

Luna Rossa the America's Cup team are making face shields:

View this post on Instagram

A post shared by Luna Rossa Prada Pirelli Team (@lunarossachallenge) on Mar 27, 2020 at 7:29am PDT

[DonDavis]

Originally Posted by Won

You might be surprised...

There's the difference. I'm speaking generally, you're pointing to outliers. Sure, a former JL guy could eventually be on a F1 Team. But are you aware of the employee turnover at a JL? Those guys can barely show up wearing pants.

Originally Posted by Won

Dyson designed a ventilator, a full blown one as far as I understand, but still need approval.

Please report back with facts on said "ventilator", I have to presume it's a respirator.

Originally Posted by Won

Personally, I would rather have the scuba mask connected to F1 CPAP machine than nothing.

Please, update your Living Will and your Power of Attorney on your wishes.

Have you ever been intubated and on a vent? Have you ever visited someone on one?
All due respect, I'm not ridiculing, I'm actually curious if you have?

This is a unique point in time for us all. And the web is a fantastic place.
Just be aware of keyboard warriors touting bs opinions. Sure, I may have a few, but they're usually car or beer related. I leave the Dr. stuff to doctors.

[DonDavis]

Also, every single Ventilator OEM has tons of spare parts to repair and maintain their product. That said, they do not have every single component lying around to assemble vents completely.

Think about a car or truck. They have a gazillion spare parts for repairs and such.
Build a complete car with those spares? Not a chance.

Medical devices are the same way.

If an F1 company or GMC or Ford can assist with building additional spares while OEM focuses on the items missing, then good. Press on.

But to say F1 or any other car company is going to build a vent from scratch is absurd.