Smith and Wesson Model 19

[aigel]

By the way, even in a snub nose revolver, the .357 does have significantly more power than the .38.

You know, this guy Paul Harrell? I enjoy his content. Speaks quick and to the point. His wisdom is always backed up with data end "experiments" ... he gets about 50% more power out of the .357 snubby vs. a .38:



You should watch some of his other videos. They are fun and informative. I am not a total gun noob and still learned quite a lot.

G

[911boost]

I have a 686plus as well, recently purchased a chest holster for it after startling a mountain lion while stalking some deer on an elk hunt.

[KFC911]

Damn this thread...I've been looking online ....

I've mentioned my baby Ruger LC9S before....I love it for what it is...sweet trigger, accurate, goes bang, rave reviews....and now discontinued....WTF ?

I considered it a "disposable"....unlike my other spoons, but dang....I just don't get it....

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by aigel

By the way, even in a snub nose revolver, the .357 does have significantly more power than the .38.

You know, this guy Paul Harrell? I enjoy his content. Speaks quick and to the point. His wisdom is always backed up with data end "experiments" ... he gets about 50% more power out of the .357 snubby vs. a .38:

You should watch some of his other videos. They are fun and informative. I am not a total gun noob and still learned quite a lot.

G

Interesting video. All I will add is that it would have been much more valid to have fired the two different kinds of ammunition out of the same revolver. There are certainly revolvers, due to varying bore diameters, cylinder mouth diameters, barrel to cylinder gaps, and other factors that will generate higher, or lower velocities than others, even of the same make and model.

One thing I picked up on was his choice of S&W for the .38 Special and Ruger for the .357 mag. Seems kind of insignificant until we learn about one recent, very important change at S&W: they began switching their barrel production method over to EDM machining of the rifling. They have been roundly criticized for the results - significantly decreased velocities as compared to similar revolvers from other manufacturers. The American Rifleman made note of this when they tested the new five shot .44 mag on the "L" frame. Others have noted this as well.

Conversely, Rugers are known for their tight chamber mouths and minimum diameter bores, both of which lead to increased velocities. I've noted this in my own Rugers.

Here are a few .44 magnum revolvers. Interestingly, the Ruger Blackhawk on the bottom, with its 3" barrel, generates the highest velocities of the bunch. Kind of unusual, yes, but they are out there:



Anyway, I'm not completely refuting his results. .357 mag ammunition will certainly generate more velocity out of the same gun than .38 Special, even out of the little snubbies. I'm just saying his results may be a bit exaggerated due to his use of different guns.

[vash]

Originally Posted by 911boost

I have a 686plus as well, recently purchased a chest holster for it after startling a mountain lion while stalking some deer on an elk hunt.

barrel length?

in CA bow hunting, we only get to carry our bows. the rest of it..throwing rocks and harsh lanquage i suppose.

having said that, my friend hit a cougar with an arrow full length. right under the chin and buried the shaft full body length. that cat still took off like a well, "a scalded cat". and disappeared. fish and game showed up with dog and defense guns like AR rifles and high capacity shotguns and chased after it. unbelievable. my buddy was cleared. some tracker figured out the cat was after my friend for several hundred yards.

i would be a cat turd.

[aigel]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Interesting video. All I will add is that it would have been much more valid to have fired the two different kinds of ammunition out of the same revolver. There are certainly revolvers, due to varying bore diameters, cylinder mouth diameters, barrel to cylinder gaps, and other factors that will generate higher, or lower velocities than others, even of the same make and model.

One thing I picked up on was his choice of S&W for the .38 Special and Ruger for the .357 mag. Seems kind of insignificant until we learn about one recent, very important change at S&W: they began switching their barrel production method over to EDM machining of the rifling. They have been roundly criticized for the results - significantly decreased velocities as compared to similar revolvers from other manufacturers. The American Rifleman made note of this when they tested the new five shot .44 mag on the "L" frame. Others have noted this as well.

Conversely, Rugers are known for their tight chamber mouths and minimum diameter bores, both of which lead to increased velocities. I've noted this in my own Rugers.

Here are a few .44 magnum revolvers. Interestingly, the Ruger Blackhawk on the bottom, with its 3" barrel, generates the highest velocities of the bunch. Kind of unusual, yes, but they are out there:

...

Anyway, I'm not completely refuting his results. .357 mag ammunition will certainly generate more velocity out of the same gun than .38 Special, even out of the little snubbies. I'm just saying his results may be a bit exaggerated due to his use of different guns.

Yes, mixing makes isn't prudent for sure. If you look at some of his other videos, he has no sponsors and is only using guns he or someone in his circle of friends owns. This is refreshing to me, because it keeps him independent and he doesn't just flash up the latest and greatest fad guns, but it does lead to some comparisons that could be done better. If he had a gun shop sponsor, he could just walk in there and pick the perfect pair for the comparisons ...

I used to carry a .357 L frame in the woods when rifle hunting. Heavy and seemed redundant and I stopped. Then I had a close encounter with a cougar at night while my rifle was strapped to my pack. That changed my mind and I now carry a side arm again in that wilderness. But still, I chose a .44 special snub nose over the L frame because it is so much lighter and easier to carry.

G

[speeder]

I’m not really looking for maximum velocity in a small pocket carry weapon. I don’t need the bullet going through the intended target and killing someone else 50 yards away. Not to mention the shots that miss.

I’m interested in killing the carjacker or mugger in front of me, no one else. If they are more than a few feet away, I’ll run or step on the loud pedal.

[KFC911]

It wouldn't matter what I wuz carrying...

Purina is my name

[vash]

last year. we were hunting a friends ranch in Animas NM.

we were sitting and watching, and i hear a racket. what i saw blew my mind. there was a female deer with a fawn. coyotes attacked that fawn. maybe four coyotes. we were watching like it was an episode of Wild Kingdom (brought to you by mutual of omaha). the momma deer was effen heroic. she was charging around head butting, kicking the dogs. a coyote would pull the fawn down and momma was right there. she was slowly losing ground and getting tired. it was awful to watch. the battle moved to around 40 yards downhill of us. i hear my brother utter, "i cant watch this happen". right or wrong, he intervened. BOOM! he fired his .357 pocket carry. it sounded so feeble. like a pop. but those coyote scattered. the fawn looked scratched up but ran away with mom. i kid you not, that mom took time to look at us.

funny thing, we saw a buck sneaking out the backside. typical male. hahahha..we were so shocked watching the battle we missed the buck. the dude was, "you got this honey? i'm out!"

sorry for the .357 story hijack. carry on.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by aigel

Yes, mixing makes isn't prudent for sure. If you look at some of his other videos, he has no sponsors and is only using guns he or someone in his circle of friends owns. This is refreshing to me, because it keeps him independent and he doesn't just flash up the latest and greatest fad guns, but it does lead to some comparisons that could be done better. If he had a gun shop sponsor, he could just walk in there and pick the perfect pair for the comparisons ...

I used to carry a .357 L frame in the woods when rifle hunting. Heavy and seemed redundant and I stopped. Then I had a close encounter with a cougar at night while my rifle was strapped to my pack. That changed my mind and I now carry a side arm again in that wilderness. But still, I chose a .44 special snub nose over the L frame because it is so much lighter and easier to carry.

G

I'll have to check out more of his stuff. He does seem like a pretty honest, straightforward kind of guy.

Originally Posted by speeder

I’m not really looking for maximum velocity in a small pocket carry weapon. I don’t need the bullet going through the intended target and killing someone else 50 yards away. Not to mention the shots that miss.

I’m interested in killing the carjacker or mugger in front of me, no one else. If they are more than a few feet away, I’ll run or step on the loud pedal.

There is a lot to be said for this. Interestingly, the British were roundly criticized for their old .455 Webley revolvers because their velocities were so darn low. I think they barely broke 600 fps with a 250 grain or so bullet. Our .45 Colt topped 900, then the .45 auto topped 800. Clearly superior - or were they? The British maintained that such a round could have too much velocity, causing it pass right through, where theirs would do more damage by stopping before it did. In the end, the .455 became a very respected "man stopper". Something to think about.

Originally Posted by vash

last year. we were hunting a friends ranch in Animas NM.

we were sitting and watching, and i hear a racket. what i saw blew my mind. there was a female deer with a fawn. coyotes attacked that fawn. maybe four coyotes. we were watching like it was an episode of Wild Kingdom (brought to you by mutual of omaha). the momma deer was effen heroic. she was charging around head butting, kicking the dogs. a coyote would pull the fawn down and momma was right there. she was slowly losing ground and getting tired. it was awful to watch. the battle moved to around 40 yards downhill of us. i hear my brother utter, "i cant watch this happen". right or wrong, he intervened. BOOM! he fired his .357 pocket carry. it sounded so feeble. like a pop. but those coyote scattered. the fawn looked scratched up but ran away with mom. i kid you not, that mom took time to look at us.

funny thing, we saw a buck sneaking out the backside. typical male. hahahha..we were so shocked watching the battle we missed the buck. the dude was, "you got this honey? i'm out!"

sorry for the .357 story hijack. carry on.

Sorry for the hijack? That was a great story, vash.

[vash]

any truth to:

wadcutters are simply made to punch tidy neat holes in paper?

[speeder]

There was a police shooting incident covered in another spoon thread here a few years back w a case study of a shoot-out between the cops and some dude who drew them into a trap and ambushed them. He was fully expecting to die, he just wanted to kill as many cops as possible.

I remember that the FBI did a report on it for the purpose of evaluating various types of ammo. The short version is that the cops shot the guy multiple times w hollow point/expanding rounds and nothing was dropping the guy until SWAT shot him w some high-powered rifle that finally ventilated the guy and dropped him. Really interesting, I might have some details wrong but not the jist of it.

[Bill Douglas]

Originally Posted by vash

any truth to:

wadcutters are simply made to punch tidy neat holes in paper?

I use .38 Spl wadcutters to kill paper. they are good because the hole is nice and clean and big, so as much chance as possible to be touching a higher scoring ring on the target.

I've heard they are an OK self defense round. a solid round node can enter and exit with the would closing up behind, whereas a wadcutter makes a hole no less than the bullet diameter.

[KFC911]

Given a choice....grab a rifle .

That said...mass & slow works better than fast & fragmented from a pistol....at least that's what I've always been told...for stopping power anyways.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by speeder

There was a police shooting incident covered in another spoon thread here a few years back w a case study of a shoot-out between the cops and some dude who drew them into a trap and ambushed them. He was fully expecting to die, he just wanted to kill as many cops as possible.

I remember that the FBI did a report on it for the purpose of evaluating various types of ammo. The short version is that the cops shot the guy multiple times w hollow point/expanding rounds and nothing was dropping the guy until SWAT shot him w some high-powered rifle that finally ventilated the guy and dropped him. Really interesting, I might have some details wrong but not the jist of it.

Originally Posted by Bill Douglas

I use .38 Spl wadcutters to kill paper. they are good because the hole is nice and clean and big, so as much chance as possible to be touching a higher scoring ring on the target.

I've heard they are an OK self defense round. a solid round node can enter and exit with the would closing up behind, whereas a wadcutter makes a hole no less than the bullet diameter.

Hmm... I could bore you guys to tears with my experiences with and impressions of various handgun bullet designs. I've hunted on and off for 40 years with handguns, shooting everything from small game to some rather large critters. I've tried pretty much every general type of handgun bullet, including jacketed hollow points, jacketed soft points, and hard cast lead bullets. Granted, hunting is not defensive shooting, but I have certainly formed some opinions.

First and foremost, the jacketed hollow point is the most utterly worthless bullet design ever used in a handgun. I've had them completely disintegrate on something as light as a rib bone on a mule deer. Even if they don't hit a bone, they seldom penetrate enough to reach vital organs and put the critter down. I've followed deer hit with these things for miles, sometimes having to leave them overnight and start again the next day. If found, they just have nasty surface wounds, and died a lingering death.

Jacketed soft points are not much better. Their cores are too soft (so they expand), so they come apart as well, just not as readily. They still lack the penetration required to put game down quickly.

The best bullets I have ever used are hard cast lead bullets, which behave like solids - they do not expand or deform in any way. The shape is important - round noses just don't cut it. As Bill says, wounds close up behind them, and the wound stops bleeding. Semi-wadcutters are the preferred shape. They cut a neat hole, just like a wadcutter through a paper target, and that hole does not close up again. The animal bleeds out very quickly, especially with an exit wound. These things penetrate well enough that there will always be that exit wound. That is how a handgun kills - deep penetration, with an exit wound, cutting tissue as it goes.

Even "the most powerful handgun in the world" - Harry's .44 mag - is woefully lacking in power compared to typical centerfire rifles. Rifles have enough power to achieve the required penetration even with expanding bullets. Handguns don't. We have to choose one or the other - expansion or penetration. My hunting experiences have taught me that the latter works where the former fails.

Here is a semi wadcutter bullet as loaded in the .45 Colt. Noticed the flat front, with the sharp edge around it. Notice the sharp secondary shoulder, right in front of where it gets crimped in the case. These sharp shoulders are what do the cutting, and the killing.



I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that in this police shooting, their hollow points failed to penetrate adequately to damage the perp's vital organs. This happens all too often with this kind of bullet. They would find a truncated cone FMJ bullet to be far more effective out of their autoloaders.

[speeder]

Yep, that's what happened.

[911boost]

It’s a 6 inch Vash. Historically I have always carried a lighter auto in .40, but the issue was where to put it with a good day pack on. Will see how I like the chest rig and if it interferes with my binos. It’s pretty adjustable so I can move it around some.

Was almost as scary as popping out a startling a cow moose with her calf a few years ago. Fortunately we just backed up real slow like.

Good times.

[Jeff Higgins]

Here is my current lineup of .357 mag revolvers. Of the three, I find the Model 19 to be the most useful, and the most appropriately sized for the caliber.



The big single action is an Interarms "Virginian Dragoon", which was produced from the mid 1970's into the early 1980's. It was meant to compete with the Ruger Blackhawk. Unfortunately, it was half again as expensive, and didn't stay on the market for long. It was manufactured in Alexandria, Virginia, and touted as the only hand gun produced in a Confederate state since "The War of Northern Aggression".

This particular example is the subject of a good deal of debate today. I actually purchased it from the back seat of a Seattle police car from a cop friend with an FFL. I'm still friends with his son (he passed many years ago) who owns a local gun shop. Interestingly, many will try to tell you that they never produced a Virginian Dragoon in this caliber. I've even had shooters tell me "it must have been re-barreled, and the cylinder made from a blank". They don't believe me when I tell them I bought it new. Kind of a useless gun, really - it's the heaviest handgun I own, by far. My other two Dragoons - one in .44 mag and the other in .45 Colt - are much lighter, due to the bigger holes in them, and pack a lot more punch. Fun to shoot, though, and great for new shooters, since there is almost no recoil.

Then, of course, there is the very recognizable Colt Python. Another fun to shoot but pretty worthless gun. I wish it were a 4", that would make it more useful to me. I bought this one from my brother a few years ago, who bought it new in about 1980 when he was in the Navy. It would make a good duty gun for a cop, but for the rest of us, I think it's just a fun plinker.

The Model 19 is my favorite. It's actually somewhat useful, since it is so small. It's concealable under a dinner jacket, and really easy to carry when back packing. I do prefer a bigger caliber for that, but for a guy happy with a .357, it really can't be beat.

The grips on the Python and the Model 19 are, by the way, from Steve Herrett. They are known as the "Roper" style, named after an S&W employee who designed them in the 1930's. Steve makes these to fit your hand - you send him a trace of your hand, and he builds them accordingly. I would highly recommend them.

Anyway, that's my lineup. I love shooting these things. Little recoil, cheap, and way more accurate than I am.

[KFC911]

I don't have a 2nd string...much less 3rd or 4th .

Bought the M27 when I was 18, then the CC, then the Diamondback, then the M629...

[Jeff Higgins]

Nice stuff, KC911! Your Model 27 is actually sporting the S&W factory version of their "Roper" grips. You'll notice they are pretty much the same profile as the Herrett version. I prefer smooth grips, especially for guns with some recoil. I have one M29 that still wears the S&W grips, and it feels like I'm shooting a cheese grater. You'll never drop it, though...

I'm told that grip style on your Diamondback is now worth darn near as much as the rest of the gun. A lot of guys apparently took them off and lost them. My brother, fortunately, saved his. The gun had a set of rubber Pachmeyers on it when I got it from him, which simply had to go. I really don't like rubber grips on my revolvers.

Here's my M29 with the Ropers, rendered in Goncalo Alves, a Brazilian hardwood: