Caster Semenya - Interesting Case

[jyl]

https://www.apnews.com/543c78d943144874a661f31e88c1f8e6

This is an interesting situation.
Women typically have testosterone levels <2.0 nmol/l, far below typical male levels of >7.0.
Higher testosterone helps muscle development, which is an advantage in power sports (weightlifting, sprint running events, etc).
Some women naturally have high testosterone levels, closer to that of some men. It's a rare genetic trait called hyperandrogenism. It may not make much difference in ordinary life but in the context of power sports, its a genetic blessing.

It turns out that some - maybe a significant number - of the top female athletes in those power sports have this genetic trait.
The international sport body (CAS) and international track and field body (IAAF) have established a limit of 5.0 mmol/l for female athletes in certain sprint running events, of 800 meters and less. They will require women to be tested and, if needed, take drugs to lower their testosterone to the limit.

This is playing out in the case of one particular runner, a South African woman named Caster Semenya. But the rule is likely to affect a number of female athletes from various countries and of various races, who have this genetic trait.

One issue raised is, should athletes who are genetically blessed for a particular sport be penalized to level the playing field?

A woman's sprinter's testosterone being above 5 nmol/l is a genetic advantage for that particular sport, but so is a male basketball player being 7 feet tall (various NBA players) or a male swimmer being double-jointed or having a genetic trait that reduces lactic acid generation (Michael Phelps) or a female gymnast being under 5 feet tall or a male road cyclist having a VO2Max above 90 (Greg LeMond) etc.

Put that way, this doesn't seem like a particularly hard issue to me. To reach the highest levels of many sports requires being genetically blessed; >99% of people cannot do it no matter how skilled they are or how hard they work. There's nothing "genetically fair" about top level sports. To be a world class sprinter you must have the ability to build muscle mass, lots of fast twitch muscle fiber, the right build and height, lots of genetics you were born with. Weren't born with those characteristics? Too bad, the event is probably not for you - at least, not if you have to be the best in the world.

And therefore no sports body is trying to regulate VO2Max or height or jointedness.

So the reason this situation has arisen is the other issue, what is a "woman" and a "man"?

Increasingly society is trying to deemphasize that distinction by requiring equal treatment of all genders. But sport (at least human powered sport) has a rigid distinction: you're a woman and compete in women's events, or you're a man and compete in men's events. I think that distinction is necessary, or you basically eliminate top level female athletics. So, how do we define woman and man?

The traditional way is by their genitalia. This athlete, Semenya, is a woman by that standard (the IAAF required her to submit to a physical inspection). She was born with female genitalia, by the way. This is not a trans-sexual case which raises other issues.

The sports bodies are now adding another definition. You have to have female genitalia and testosterone level below that of typical men.

And that's where I'm having trouble figuring this out. Do we really need to add to the definition of woman vs man? If we do, isn't there some biological marker that is more fundamentally determinative of one's sex? It feels like testosterone was picked because it has a direct relation to athletic performance. But it seems that's the wrong reason to pick the marker (see first issue). Seems you should pick a biological marker - maybe a chromosonal characteristic - that isn't simply a proxy for performance.

[Les Paul]

She has nuts up inside. Likely the other 2 dudes that medaled in the last women’s Olympic 800 too.

[john70t]

BPA + GMO + BGH + Vaxx + unnamed 3letterexperimentgroup= Gene Genie.
Who knows what will come out of that bottle.

(but the X-Men movie told me this basketball tumor on my head is normal so nevermind)

[GeorgeK]

According to Wiki, she was born with XY chromosomes, i.e. male genetic sex.

[Tervuren]

It is picked because it is an easy distinction.

Surgery can be made to alter the way a body looks.

For as long as the Olympics has been around, country's and people have tried to cheat.

They already regulate other aspects of blood chemistry, substances not allowed. This is the obvious path for them.

[Bill Douglas]

Have you guys seen pictures of "her".

[speeder]

Originally Posted by Bill Douglas

Have you guys seen pictures of "her".

Yes. That’s a man, baby.

[Tervuren]

Jyl, there is an important distinction that I am not seeing when I look at this issue in the media.

The Olympics allow transgender men to compete in women's sports.

If Caster is a man saying she is a woman that is not an issue, and would not have him/her removed or disqualified.

What Caster is falling afoul of is anti-doping regulation.

A man competing in woman's sports has to be able to meet the standard for woman's levels.

[Crowbob]

Originally Posted by Bill Douglas

Have you guys seen pictures of "her".

This thread is worthless with pics.

[Laneco]

This is an image of Caster Semenya in a race. Pretty easy to see the differences even among a field of highly trained world class athletes.

She is XY intersex. Someone who is different and not easy to categorize among the strict division of male and female athletes. Tough call to make "fair." Born not XX but XY intersex makes her ridiculously dominant as a woman athlete in a speed or power sport. Should they ban her from competing or make her compete with a lowered (and therefore somewhat more equal) T level? By the way, she is not the only XY intersex competing in the 800 over the past few years.

angela

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by Laneco

This is an image of Caster Semenya in a race. Pretty easy to see the differences even among a field of highly trained world class athletes.

She is XY intersex. Someone who is different and not easy to categorize among the strict division of male and female athletes. Tough call to make "fair." Born not XX but XY intersex makes her ridiculously dominant as a woman athlete in a speed or power sport. Should they ban her from competing or make her compete with a lowered (and therefore somewhat more equal) T level? By the way, she is not the only XY intersex competing in the 800 over the past few years.

angela

There was a report out a few years ago that some of the "Super Models" are XY intersex. XY with a chromosome defect so they develop as a female. The issue is they are taller and have lower body fat than standard females.

[legion]

[Por_sha911]

This sums it up pretty well:

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

This sums it up pretty well:

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

That title doesn't matter, so I'm not sure what the article is about.

Last we went over this in another thread, transgender males are allowed.

This means that if Caster were a male, if he declared himself female, and met the T-level regulations, he/she would be allowed.

There are also T-level regulations for males in the men's category.

If a male were to "naturally" exceed these limits in the men's category; they could also be disqualified.

This is someone in the woman's division outside the regulations for T-levels for the woman's division.

[legion]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

This sums it up pretty well:

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

That person is clearly anti-trans!

[Evans, Marv]

Maybe they will need to establish new categories for XY chromosome and trans athletes.

[WolfeMacleod]

Huh. And some people say there's only two genders.

Don't forget about Klinefelter syndrome, too.

I know people of each category.

[LeRoux Strydom]

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck (and specifically challenges the IAAF's regulations regarding 46 XY DSD (i.e. male) athletes .....

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by jyl

Put that way, this doesn't seem like a particularly hard issue to me. To reach the highest levels of many sports requires being genetically blessed; >99% of people cannot do it no matter how skilled they are or how hard they work. There's nothing "genetically fair" about top level sports. To be a world class sprinter you must have the ability to build muscle mass, lots of fast twitch muscle fiber, the right build and height, lots of genetics you were born with. Weren't born with those characteristics? Too bad, the event is probably not for you - at least, not if you have to be the best in the world.

And therefore no sports body is trying to regulate VO2Max or height or jointedness.

So the reason this situation has arisen is the other issue, what is a "woman" and a "man"?

Increasingly society is trying to deemphasize that distinction by requiring equal treatment of all genders. But sport (at least human powered sport) has a rigid distinction: you're a woman and compete in women's events, or you're a man and compete in men's events. I think that distinction is necessary, or you basically eliminate top level female athletics. So, how do we define woman and man?

The traditional way is by their genitalia. This athlete, Semenya, is a woman by that standard (the IAAF required her to submit to a physical inspection). She was born with female genitalia, by the way. This is not a trans-sexual case which raises other issues.

The sports bodies are now adding another definition. You have to have female genitalia and testosterone level below that of typical men.

And that's where I'm having trouble figuring this out. Do we really need to add to the definition of woman vs man? If we do, isn't there some biological marker that is more fundamentally determinative of one's sex? It feels like testosterone was picked because it has a direct relation to athletic performance. But it seems that's the wrong reason to pick the marker (see first issue). Seems you should pick a biological marker - maybe a chromosonal characteristic - that isn't simply a proxy for performance.

I get your point, but she isn’t competing at the highest level, that would be the men. She is competing in a class limited to women. Given that division, yes they do need to define women vs men very precisely.

[cairns]

Women will no longer be competitive in their own sports. Sh *t has gone too far.