Power backup for house, need the Borg's opinion

[Deschodt]

You know, you guys, the collective ;-)

Goal is to have practical backup power at the house as our utility (PG&E) is third world class and frequently has power outages (voluntary and involuntary).

- Solar comes out to 20K for panels, $10-12K per powerwall (might need 2), and a life of 10 years on those only... Ouch.

- Full house gas generator - while the genny is $6000 or so, the total bill including power transfer switch, some trenching (location is an issue, can't be too close to neighbors), gas lines extension, pad, permitting, etc -> $24000 - Jeeeezus, hold me !!!! I thought that could be done under 10K !

- Plan C (as in cheapskate), transfer box for 10 circuits to plug in a regular generator - $2200 or so. Nothing automatic there, start generator, feed 10 circuits of my choice. On that one, my honda 2000i would not work because of how my old house is wired, I'd apparently need a 240V inverter putting out more wattage too, so either a $4500 honda 7000i (quiet), or an el cheapo $1000 louder unit... I don't understand the 240V part but he said some circuits in my panel use the same white wire and cancel each other out, needs to be a 240v inverter or my 110 inverter (which is only 2000W anyway) would melt my "white wire" when the power comes back, something about the shape of the wave... electricity is magic to me ;-)

Seems right to y'all ? Expensive ? BS ? that 240V deal ? other ideas ? Goal is not to invest $$$ to save $, it's simply to have convenient power in the house (microwave, fridge, wifi, TV, PC, lights) without a mess of extension cords when the utility goes kaboom.

[908/930]

Your in CA, is it cold in your area? Not sure why you need a 220v as as emergency backup unless you need to run your 220v ac unit or 220v oven, if you are just trying to keep some lights and fridge and freezer running 120v should be able. Do you really need 10 circuits?

I have a 2300w inverter gen for backup, good for fridge freezer and gas furnace blower motor, I stagger the startup of freezer fridge, and keep full tank of fuel in the 535i, easy to get at.

[Deschodt]

240 is not really a function of the power or temp, he said it's because of how my house panel is wired, the generator would need to be 240 - 120 could damage my wiring when the power comes back on... I confess not understanding the details there. There generator he recommended is not more expensive so I don't think he was trying to pull a fast one there...

[OldSpool87]

FYI your fully automatic quote was within $1k of the one I received to do the job last year in New York. I went the sub panel route. Keep in mind where you store the generator when not in use. If you have a detached garage with a garage door opener you could find yourself SOL when the power goes. There are work arounds...

[Seahawk]

A few things.

I have a basement and it needs sump pumps to stay dry. Really inconvenient in Hurricanes and storms, especially at night

I have multiple generators and a transfer switch at the house. We plug in the big wire from the generators (240v) and then turn on those circuits we want. Mainly sump pumps, water and entertainment. Fridges, too. https://www.bestgenerators.org/240v-generator

You want the 240v plugged into your transfer switch. Easy day. BTW, get a cable that allows you to run the generator outside the garage.

This year was incredible in terms of rain and storms...25 years here and nothing remotely close in terms of rain. The farm is a swamp.

I also live at the end of the trolley line, the last folks to get power restored.

So, after many sleepless nights this year worrying about sump pumps and power outages, I am going with an automatic system next year. I am too old for this crap.

Since a lot of the work has been done, it will be sub 15k for what I want.

I'll also keep the current generators as back-ups.

[908/930]

Hmmm, the switch unit usually bypasses the main panel. If there is a kitchen outlet with double breaker it could be the problem.

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

A few things.

I have multiple generators and a transfer switch at the house. We plug in the big wire from the generators (240v) and then turn on those circuits we want. Mainly sump pumps, water and entertainment. Fridges, too. https://www.bestgenerators.org/240v-generator

Thank you, yes the Chanmpion one is the one he recommended so good to see you agree... Does the 240V make sense ? That's the one part I'm still somewaat confused about but I'll trust there's a good reason. I'm just bummed I can't just use my Honda 2000i.

[Dpmulvan]

Originally Posted by Deschodt

Thank you, yes the Chanmpion one is the one he recommended so good to see you agree... Does the 240V make sense ? That's the one part I'm still somewaat confused about but I'll trust there's a good reason. I'm just bummed I can't just use my Honda 2000i.

You could use your Honda if you wanted to, I’m sure California code is ridiculous but there’s affordable, safe ways to wire up your Honda.

[Seahawk]

I also have the smaller Honda’s and link them.

http://cdn.powerequipment.honda.com/pe/pdf/misc/EU2200i-EU2000i-Parallel-Operation.pdf

I needed the portability for the stable and can link them to power the house via the transfer plug if needed.

I have to keep the basement dry.

[Dpmulvan]

The 120 240 issue has to do with pushing too many amps through the neutral on branch circuits sharing a neutral. Could cause a fire.

[biosurfer1]

Before you spend potentially thousands on a back up generator, I would have PG&E pull an outage report on your house.

I know they have a huge territory, but after a couple shut offs in my area, everyone had the same bug to buy whole house generators. In the past 15 years, the power has been off at my house for a total of 4 hours involuntary, and 4 days due to the PSPS.

While the PSPS shut offs were annoying, only once did it cause us to throw out food and actually cost us money.

A couple days every decade or two of the power being out would never, ever pay back. I'd have to value the convenience of having power during those rare outages at a crazy level to justify a whole house generator, especially over a small generator to run the fridge and couple other devices.

Your house might have more frequent shutoffs which is why I suggest having them send you a report...it's worth it to have all the info before dropping that kind of coin

[onewhippedpuppy]

If he doesn’t reply send a PM to Redbeard, he does this stuff for a living.

[GH85Carrera]

My over the fence neighbor behind me put in a Generac whole house unit. It was 8 grand and I thought that was a lot. In the years many he has had it it has had to run for about 20 minutes total.

24 grand must be one whopper of a generator.

One every thread like this I get the urge to get a generator. Then I get back to the fact that out power is so reliable. In 22 years at this house there are just two occasions where It would have run and been nice to have. Neither outtage was a big deal.

[Evans, Marv]

As a matter of fact, we just had out power turned on again a couple of hours ago after being off for almost three days. This is the second time this has happened this winter. Plus we've had several complete days of outage because they're replacing wood poles with steel ones. This is all to prevent the poles from burning in case of fire. The multiple day outages are because of high winds coupled with high fire danger periods, which is probably an ongoing situation. I have a 10 kW generator powering six circuits on a 7.5 kW transfer box. I bought both knowing I needed a backup but not knowing exactly how much & what for at the time. The house is all electric, & for this reason I'm considering a diesel backup of 15 to 25 kW for the whole house & pressure pump. The setup now takes care of fridge, freezer, some lights, & plugins, but when we go for days without power, it's a real bother. I'd look at what you want to power and decide on the size of generator. The only reason you'd want a whole house setup would be if you go through times of multiple day outages.

[Robert Coats]

If there ends up being a way around the 240V requirement, and you can use 120V, Honda makes an 'add on' 2200 watt model called the Companion, which can work all by itself, or, using a simple set of parallel cables, connect to your current Honda genny. The Companion has a beefy 30A twist-lock receptacle, so you can pull the full amount of (4.4kW) power from *both* units via a single receptacle on the Companion.

This makes it super easy to then plug into a an inlet box to supply power to a transfer switch.

There are also a number of third-party external tanks that can tee into the fuel caps of both generators, significantly increasing the run time. FYI, the Honda EU2200 and Companion 2200 both use fuel pumps, so the extended-run tanks work nicely.

[908/930]

Linking the two still only gives 120v, just higher amperage, I have a connector to run both of mine together.

[gtc]

A&B are the only ones that will add to the value of the home.
A is the only one that will pay you back over time.
I would choose solar.

[Arizona_928]

Those little guys are air cooled and carb. Really not that long term reliable. I would go with a 6 kw 120 v water cooled diesel. With a steady load and 1800 rpm they will last 10,000 + hours. 4 hours per gallon. Used ones go for under a grand.

The transfer switch should be pretty easy to wire. I say easy for me, but I've designed a couple stand alone systems for personal use.

[Deschodt]

Thanks a lot guys, makes sense...

Honestly my option#1 was full house, set and forget and invite the neighbors to sip a cold beverage during the next outage, but I was assuming under $10K. $25K is stupid money and serious margins IMO.

Solar was never really in the cards, it's 30-40K all done with powerwalls and I may not live here forever, and it may cause roofing issues (like, hell, let's redo the roof while we're at it).

We went 5 days without power last year on fire risk shutdowns, this year not so bad but lost it 2-3 times and each time it's a rat's nest of power cords and young kids freaking out. Now that I work from home full time I really need a more practical solutions than a cord thru the window and exhaust smell. A transfer switch for my generator is a good cheap solution, clean... I put a deposit for it tonight after reading all the posts.. The unplanned issue was the 120V vs 240 that will require me to buy a new generator. I can resell the honda I guess. Seems like the least crazy solution for an occasional outage - $3500 all in, I'm guessing, with a permanent enclosure on the side of the house near the panel. I love Hondas but paying $4500 for a 7000i that'll run at worst a week a year isn't smart allocation of resources, I also need a set of pilot sport 4S ;-)

Thank you to DPMulvan for confirming the 120-240V that I did not understand!

[dan79brooklyn]

Isn’t it possible to use an electric vehicle’s battery as back up power for one’s house? I could imagine there is a way that if you had solar it would charge your car during the day, but at night you would use the car’s battery to deliver power to your home.