ahow do we combat modern submarines?

[svandamme]

That's not a Typhoon.

But a Delta variant.




Typhoon (Red October) looks like this

[RS America]

I retired 30 years ago. But we used to take her out before patrol for tests. Take her to Test Depth and the always fun Angles and Dangles. The boat goes crazy, just about turns over looking form anything that might make noise. Noise is Death.

Test Depth is fun for the Newbies, We'd tie a line across the hull on the surface. Then let you watch it get looser the deeper we went, test depth, usually on the floor.

[matthewb0051]

Originally Posted by svandamme

That's not a Typhoon.

But a Delta variant.

Oops. I grabbed the first one I saw and did it without really looking. But they still had a swimming pool. Pretty gross though, FF to 4:00 in the vid.

[mjohnson]

Originally Posted by RS America

I retired 30 years ago. But we used to take her out before patrol for tests. Take her to Test Depth and the always fun Angles and Dangles. The boat goes crazy, just about turns over looking form anything that might make noise. Noise is Death.

Test Depth is fun for the Newbies, We'd tie a line across the hull on the surface. Then let you watch it get looser the deeper we went, test depth, usually on the floor.

My motto is "why - yes! I'd love to have that cool experience." And I've had a few.

This has my "nope" light blinking so hard. I'm thankful others can do it but I'm tagging out on that one.

I've been on a brit trident sub, but it was at the jetty. That was enough for me...

[Rusty Heap]

Fill them with magic white powder

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS4HSPCjC28

[jyl]

What I wonder about is carrier vs long range missile.

As I understand it, the range of carrier aircraft vs the range of antiship missile is not moving in the right direction (for the carrier).

There’s a lot of places close to China that we care about.

[look 171]

This sounds like a sub can pretty much take out an aircraft carrier without too much effort? My question is, how or what is the anti sub menthod to blow em' out of the water if they are found?

[RS America]

Have you ever seen a picture of a Carrier Battle Group? Every ship there is to protect the Carrier with multiple weapons systems. What you don't see is each group has at least 1 if not 2 Fast Attack Submarines. They're good, really, really good. The Carrier also carries Sub Hunter/Killer Aircraft that are constantly hunting. There's more. The Navy has mined the oceans with Sonobouy lines and listening stations. They listen to everything in the ocean, record ships noise signatures. Everyone of our boats will have all the signatures downloaded. The first thing they do is look for a match. The Carrier can call up all noises the sonobouys hear. One more, some of the escorts have Sonar, they can deafen a boat, because you hear every ping, now multiply the pings. The boat acts like a echo chamber. Oh yeah, almost forgot, Magnetic Anomaly Detection. The iron in a boat deflects the earth magnetic lines and we can measure that. I think that's enough.

I served on carriers, fast attack/boomers, PBR's, Air/Sea Rescue, Staffs, etc. Top Secret SBI.

[RS America]

Missiles, yeah. They can be a problem. I got sent to fix the USS Stark in 87. She'd just caught 2 Exocet missile from Sadam. +20 killed. Flipped the Emergency Generator upside down, Chief Quarters, empty hole. BUT, she did not sink and she's a small frigate, IIRC she was independent steaming Carriers are a harder. The Battle Group has the Aegis Combat System based on a Cruiser can operate Every Escorts Weapons System and track over 100 targets simultaneously and that's not all. Well, this has been fun.

[red 928]

We have microphones on the floor of the seas.
we know where their subs are.
We follow them and can kill them all after they can launch the first salvo.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by jyl

What I wonder about is carrier vs long range missile.

As I understand it, the range of carrier aircraft vs the range of antiship missile is not moving in the right direction (for the carrier).

All true.

I have done more than a few Battle Group "cruises". There is a layered defense approach across the air, surface and sub-surface mission sets.

It is absolutely true that the Battle Group is being pushed father out to sea from certain threat areas. So much so that the CNO wrote a directive and established a group to study the problem: "Project Overmatch" and "Novel Force".

Really stunning letters.

Also, unlike video games, a Battle Group does not have an endless supply of anti-ship, anti-air missiles and capability. I won't go into the details but the rise of cheap UAS with sufficient range and payload to engage the BG has become problematic...we call them airborne IEDs.

That and power projection at distance is hard.

Again, there is any number of articles and studies addressing this very real problem.

[mjohnson]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

I won't go into the details but the rise of cheap UAS with sufficient range and payload to engage the BG has become problematic...we call them airborne IEDs.

That and power projection at distance is hard.

There was a time in my career (ok, two years ago) that in doing vulnerability analyses of some other parts of our defense stuff, we would ask the leaders "what keeps you up at night?" What they described with UAS was terrifying and now I'm kept up at night.

A strange new world.

[javadog]

I had a conversation the other day with an ex-submariner that gave me the impression that our best boats can’t be found.

No other country has submarines as good as ours.

[svandamme]

depends on the type of submarine work.
full ocean worldwide patrols, endurance, yes, versatility, yes

But there are some very very good diesel electrics out there for near own coast operations that are very good as well, if not better because they can really shut down EVERYTHING and become way more silent then a nuke boat.
Ability to quiet everything down is pretty important for subs.

Swedish Blekinge class by Saab just to name one, and the German Type 212 are not to be underestimated

I don't know how well these boats can detect, or how well they can train their sonarmen. The US probably has more advanced training simply because of scale of the program and a bigger pool to pick people from.
But the best sonar man in the world can't hear chit if the boat truly has everything turned off.. Which a nuke cannot do and a diesel electric can

[sc_rufctr]

Some related local news...

"10 News First Adelaide

BREAKING: AUKUS SUBS TO BE BUILT IN ADELAIDE
Australia, the United States and the United Kingdom announced a defence agreement called AUKUS this morning.

The agreement will see a fleet of nuclear-powered subs be built in Adelaide.

AUKUS was designed to build security and stability within the Indo-Pacific region.

Scott Morrison, Joe Biden and Boris Johnson were all quick to reiterate that these submarines will be nuclear-powered and not nuclear submarines.

It is unclear how many submarines will be built, but it means the current submarine deal with French company Naval Group will now be scrapped."

[javadog]

Originally Posted by svandamme

depends on the type of submarine work.
full ocean worldwide patrols, endurance, yes, versatility, yes

But there are some very very good diesel electrics out there for near own coast operations that are very good as well, if not better because they can really shut down EVERYTHING and become way more silent then a nuke boat.
Ability to quiet everything down is pretty important for subs.

Swedish Blekinge class by Saab just to name one, and the German Type 212 are not to be underestimated

I don't know how well these boats can detect, or how well they can train their sonarmen. The US probably has more advanced training simply because of scale of the program and a bigger pool to pick people from.
But the best sonar man in the world can't hear chit if the boat truly has everything turned off.. Which a nuke cannot do and a diesel electric can

Coastal waters are usually more shallow than the deep blue sea and there are ways to find subs in those waters that don’t rely upon sound transmission.

Good luck finding a boomer down deep in the middle of nowhere.

[svandamme]

well sure, but those boats are not limited to just the littoral waters
They can get in the deep blue sea, they just don't have the endurance to do so and cross oceans as such. In that deep blue sea, they can park their ass and be ultra quiet, and wait for such a boomer to come by, for instance at certain areas where traffic has to cross.

[Rapewta]

Way back in 69' flying in the P3's out of Kodiak, we searched for Soviet Subs with Sona-buoys.
12 hour flights. I was the Radioman and also photographer. Pretty cool thing to do as a 19 yr old.

Today, without up to date information on how the technology has advanced I am clueless on answering the OP.

If I was in the Navy today.... I would probably feel real comfortable on board a Fast Attack Nuke.

[John Rogers]

The Russian and Chinese subs are noisy, even if running on batteries as their electric motors are not quiet. Their reactors are noisy even though the Russians tried pressurized water systems with natural circulation which had issues with the water cavitating at speeds over 2 or 3 knots!

Back in 1978 I was on the CGN25, USS Bainbridge, over in Hawaii with "war games" with Japanese, Australian, and Singapore Navies. Sooooooo we loaded up a test ASROC to show all those guys how to "kill" a submarine. There were 9 of us "good guys" going to get the "bad guys" on the boat. So we all sailed around for about 4 hours in the box are that the sub was supposed to be in, no luck at all by any of us! So after time ran out the sub surfaced about 1/2 mile away and actually flashed the signal lamp to us of all things. They started to dive and we ran the ASROC torpedo out on the forward launcher and a count down started and boom away the ASROC went. About the time the missile left the rail that sub went to silent running. Down goes the ASROC at what looked like right on top where the sub had been, but noooooo they weren't there. The ASROC looked around like they really do and guess what, even though we were doing only 5 knots our screws made so much noise that thing ran right under our stern!!!! If it had been live....KABOOM for us. Those were older boats too.
John

[otto_kretschmer]

Originally Posted by svandamme

youtube, sub brief
former sub sonar dude that explains all sorts of stuf bout subs

He's kind of a blabber mouth but he's been there and done that

I've always wanted to know if he retired as a chief or a 1st class