ahow do we combat modern submarines?

[look 171]

Just finishing watching Grayhound, finally. Great movie BTW. It got me thinking, how do we sink or combat modern subs, I haven't a clue? Depth charges, still? What protection do they have against battle ships or the latest and the greatest out there today?

[sc_rufctr]

One word - Sound - They go to extraordinary lengths to mitigate sound in a submarine.

They're always working on something new but as far as I know that's the only reliable way they can track a submarine. (I'm sure Mr SeaHawk will chime in shortly.) There are "new fangled micro torpedoes" (less than 10 foot long) that pose a real threat but a submarine at depth is very hard to detect and deal with.

Your nuclear powered submarines can stay submerged for a very long time. They make their own air and water. Their only real limitation is the amount of food they can store onboard for the crew.

[mjohnson]

Originally Posted by look 171

Just finishing watching Grayhound, finally. Great movie BTW. It got me thinking, how do we sink or combat modern subs, I haven't a clue? Depth charges, still? What protection do they have against battle ships or the latest and the greatest out there today?

I think we only use battleships against the aliens these days, from what I hear. Though a USN battleship nerd/metallugrical eng prof on sabbatical some years ago at Colorado Mines had an amazing two hour talk on the Iowa class. What tremendous machines!

I have no real knowledge in the field, but I wonder at some point if you have to start looking for "dark/quiet" parts of the ocean. The newer generation (see the Swedes) of electric boats are stupid quiet, and they can take out any surface ship, period. It's not a superpower-only game anymore. The ability to take out capital assets so quickly is kind of terrifying in that things could escalate very (very) quickly to nuclear exchanges.

Or, we had analogous discussions in the 1960s and yet here we are today - so who knows of the future?

[look 171]

Originally Posted by mjohnson

The newer generation (see the Swedes) of electric boats are stupid quiet, and they can take out any surface ship, period. It's not a superpower-only game anymore. The ability to take out capital assets so quickly is kind of terrifying in that things could escalate very (very) quickly to nuclear exchanges.

Frightening.

[beepbeep]

Originally Posted by mjohnson

The newer generation (see the Swedes) of electric boats are stupid quiet, and they can take out any surface ship, period. It's not a superpower-only game anymore. The ability to take out capital assets so quickly is kind of terrifying in that things could escalate very (very) quickly to nuclear exchanges.

Yes, Gotland class (run by Stirling engines) is quiet but still not a nuke sub... quiet for a while but needs to surface eventually to catch a breath.

[Captain Ahab Jr]

a school of self-learning, underwater, autonomous drones will find, track and follow submarines

[masraum]

Back in the mid to late 80s, my dad was in the Navy. He wanted to advance in rank and decided to take a tour of duty at sea. His theory was that you could either go on a submarine or a target (ship). He chose submarine. He would go out for 4-8 weeks at a time on nuclear fast attacks. I don't remember exactly, but I think he went out 5-10 times during a 3 year period. We then moved to a new place and he got his next rank.

What ever happened to the Red October and it's silent drive?

[mjohnson]

Originally Posted by Captain Ahab Jr

a school of self-learning, underwater, autonomous drones will find, track and follow submarines

Similar to how we all learnt of the stealth fighter and bomber years after they'd been in the sky - I'd bet this is already out there.

Another game changer is that micro-drone swarm aircraft tech that came out a few years ago.

Strange new world...

[GH85Carrera]

No doubt the smart people are working on ways to track subs. The USA has been ahead of the game on nuke subs that are really quiet, and can stay submerged for 6 months of more. Max depth will be the only safe areas and water pressure builds really fast.

The only real way to stop them is have our own silent subs with lots of nuclear warheads on board to strike back very hard to any attack on us. Several off the coast of China and Russia will make them think long and hard before they try to attack our ships or the cities.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

No doubt the smart people are working on ways to track subs. The USA has been ahead of the game on nuke subs that are really quiet, and can stay submerged for 6 months of more. Max depth will be the only safe areas and water pressure builds really fast.

The only real way to stop them is have our own silent subs with lots of nuclear warheads on board to strike back very hard to any attack on us. Several off the coast of China and Russia will make them think long and hard before they try to attack our ships or the cities.

From my dad's days, they were only allowed to say that the subs could go to 400'. Hahahah

[3rd_gear_Ted]

The hunter killer sub class now has robotic drone subs that work in conjunction with each other.
The maritime P-8 aircraft has smart torpedo's .
The boomer subs have Trident missiles, most powerful weapon system on the planet.

[Jeff Higgins]

My older brother spent six years aboard the USS Pollack, a Permit class nuclear fast attack submarine, in the late 1970's - early 1980's. He has remained somewhat a student of the submarine in his post Navy life.

In short, in each and every "war game" played with either our own Navy or with our allies' Navies, the submarines never lost. Never "lost" a boat, never "suffered" any "damage". Ever.

Submariners' favorite saying is that "there are two kinds of ships in the Navy - submarines and targets". It really was (and he tells me it still is) that lopsided.

The Permit class (all now retired) carried nuclear tipped torpedoes. All they had to do was to put one in the middle of your battle group - just one. All that remains is a big boiling bubble in the ocean where your fleet used to be...

[vash]

i was hoping the answer would be Dolphins.

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by vash

i was hoping the answer would be Dolphins.

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_marine_mammal

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by vash

i was hoping the answer would be Dolphins.

In a way, it is. The insignia for qualifying on a submarine, both O and E, are called earning your "Dolphins".



I have a lot of experience tracking submarines. That was part of my job as an SH-60B pilot. There are a number of ways to do it (SOSUS, Active and Passive Sonobuoys, Ship based active and passive SONAR, ship towed arrays, Helicopter dipping SONAR, Magnetic anomaly detection, LiDAR, even radar in some scenarios, etc.) but the best is another submarine.

Electric boats are great, extremely quiet, but they are limited in range. In the 80's Russian subs sounded like dump trucks on the 405. Not anymore.

I have a million stories.

We did a "PASSEX" against the Australian electric subs in 1987 headed to Perth. It was a night op.

When an "enemy" sub gets a targeting solution on a ship, they launch a green flare that breaks the surface and explodes like a 4th of July Firework.

There were a lot of green flares that night.

BTW, the "condition" of the water plays a huge role in anti-submarine warfare.

[sc_rufctr]

Mr Hawk... Just quietly I was at Campbell Barracks, Perth, Western Australia in 1987.

[svandamme]

youtube, sub brief
former sub sonar dude that explains all sorts of stuf bout subs

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

Mr Hawk... Just quietly I was at Campbell Barracks, Perth, Western Australia in 1987.

Quietly? I bet

I had breakfast in DC this morning with one of the other pilots from the 1987 cruise/detachment, we were on FFG-37, the USS Crommelin, named after five brothers.

There was evidentiality a tie in with an Australian family related to the American Crommelin's. We had a great time in port.

Mike, the other pilot, was an excellent golfer and we were invited to play at the Royal Perth Golf Club due to the Crommelin tie-in.

We talked about it this morning. We were both a bit "under the weather" and the day started rough. By the end, Mike had shot a 1 over, much to the delight of the guys we were playing with. Mike said this morning, "From regret to one of the best days of my life!"

Anyway, thanks to all you folks.

Concerning subs. There are books written about anti-submarine warfare (ASW) that are very well done and up to date. If anyone is so inclined, the ocean environment impact on ASW is worth a high level review; from thermoclines, BT buoys and minimum detection ranges based on salinity, temperatures and ambient noises. The environment changes daily. Sensor performance is greatly affected.

That said, we are working on a sub-launched UAS to help gain a better tactical advantage over other countries subs.

One last bit: When the threat gets serious, the carrier will go high speed and erratic. The best defense a surface ship has is speed and unpredictability.

At least we think so.

[dw1]

I am certainly not up on the state of the art, but I believe many of the principles are the same as I learned them years ago: detection using sound (very often from airborne sources via air-dropped sonabouys and dipping sonar, deployed to various depths) and magnetic anomaly detection (MAD).

Interestingly, one exercise I remember is evaluating passive sonar signals by what was being "masked", i.e. the intermittent absence of sounds as if something was blocking a source.

It is also interesting to note the "camouflage" systems developed at that time - the Prairie-Masker for example - a system that made it more difficult for the subs to determine surface ship identity and movement.

As said in a post above, there are many good books on modern ASW. My training was on the SQS-26 and I know the signal processing and system integration got a lot better since then - like with the SQS-53.

- USN STG3 (about a million years ago)

[matthewb0051]

Originally Posted by masraum

.

What ever happened to the Red October and it's silent drive?

Here's one. IIRC most of them, in real life w/o caterpillar drive, have been cut up.

You know that these also had a swimming pool inside.